First it was the Jews...

[_Mary]

You don't have to write history books to know she's not "crazy".

And you don't have to be Einstein to recognize that a number of you on this thread know very little about the rise of Hitler and therefore haven't got a clue what she's talking about.

Our society is so distracted with bread and circuses, we can't get off the collision course we are on--because most don't know we're heading for a crisis.

Well as a history major, I studied the rise of Hitler at Uni, and I think this lady is crazy. Hitler rose out of the ashes of the humiliation of being on the losing side after WW1. The Treaty of Versailles ensured that not only did they lose the war, they lost the peace. (and America were wise not to forget the lessons learned after the cessation of hostilities at the end of WW2, in their dealings with Japan)

Hitler, from Mein Kempf had a specific policy of expansion, unification and anihalation (of Jews in particular).

Grief...

Mary

[_truth dancer]

Ummm Jason, isn't it like, illegal to hire illegal immigrants?

Yep

I don't hire them. I do not own the business. In fact my wife and I have had vigourous "discussions" about this issue. She does not own the business either. She tells me they all have "documentation" and that the owners are not required to check to see if the documentation is forged. They do payroll for these folks, pay payroll taxes on them, and so on.

I know you are not part of the business. I didn't think hiring illegal immigrants would be behavior in which you would engage. I'm not trying to be a judge or anything but just knowing your wife is part of the "family business" and all, how engaging in illegal activity meshes with that old silly TRI rule about obeying the laws. Doesn't matter... No big deal.

Just a little FYI... I'm not a lawyer but I think your wife is wrong about the laws not caring if the employer didn't check documentation. With "constructive knowledge" they can still be charged with conspiracy to harbor undocumented immigrants for profit, aiding and abetting the harboring of undocumented immigrants, etc. In some cases not just employers but also management and supervisors can be charged.

From ReportIllegals.com

http://www.reportillegals.com/law.html

An employer has constructive knowledge that an employee is an illegal unauthorized worker if a reasonable person would infer it from the facts. Constructive knowledge constituting a violation of federal law has been found where (1) the I-9 employment eligibility form has not been properly completed, including supporting documentation, (2) the employer has learned from other individuals, media reports, or any source of information available to the employer that the alien is unauthorized to work, or (3) the employer acts with reckless disregard for the legal consequences of permitting a third party to provide or introduce an illegal alien into the employer's work force. Knowledge cannot be inferred solely on the basis of an individual's accent or foreign appearance.

Actual specific knowledge is not required. For example, a newspaper article stating that ballrooms depend on an illegal alien work force of dance hostesses was held by the courts to be a reasonable ground for suspicion that unlawful conduct had occurred.

You may want to read this site Jason... you know, one not so happy neighbor with one phone call could cause a lot of problems. With so many people out of work, you just never know.

In terms of how often I listen to Rush and Beck... well, they are not people who I would even remotely enjoy listening to but I make an effort to hear and listen to many points of view so have deliberately listened to their rants. Try as I might I just can't take it for long at any one given time. It is like scratching fingernails on the chalkboard multiplied by about a thousand. They turn my stomach to be honest. I so don't get the appeal. Still, I'm doing my best.

[_Jason Bourne]

I know you are not part of the business. I didn't think hiring illegal immigrants would be behavior in which you would engage.

Ok but you seemed to imply it when you said:

Ummm Jason, isn't it like, illegal to hire illegal immigrants

I'm not trying to be a judge or anything but just knowing your wife is part of the "family business" and all, how engaging in illegal activity meshes with that old silly TRI rule about obeying the laws. Doesn't matter... No big deal.

What is your point TD? She does not hire them, make the decision about this, etc. Her father and brother own the farm and they take care of this. How that impact her, or my answer on the TR question is really rather an odd thing to bring up. And for that matter, if the Church will baptize illegals and even send an illegal on a mission from the US apparently they do not have a problem with it.

And for that matter, while I am a strong proponent of immigration reform issues and clamping down on illegal immigration I see the plight of the agricultural business first hand. Not only with my wife's family business but with other people I do business with. I live in an area that is heavy in agriculture. They cannot find American willing to work at the farm jobs. Some may argue that they should pay more to get Americans who will do the work. Fine. Just don't bitch when you pay $8 a gallon for Milk and other food prices go up. Farmers run thin profit margins as it is. Push pay up to high and you put many out of business unless they can pass the cost along to you.

I would rather see that farmer not higher illegals. The labor pool of Americans is just not there.

Just a little FYI... I'm not a lawyer but I think your wife is wrong about the laws not caring if the employer didn't check documentation. With "constructive knowledge" they can still be charged with conspiracy to harbor undocumented immigrants for profit, aiding and abetting the harboring of undocumented immigrants, etc. In some cases not just employers but also management and supervisors can be charged.

Could be. They run a risk as does almost every other farmer and ag business I know of at least where I live.

You may want to read this site Jason... you know, one not so happy neighbor with one phone call could cause a lot of problems. With so many people out of work, you just never know.

Not my problem really but I will pass it on to my father in law. And you know, just maybe with a lot of people out of work some of the American who thought ag labor beneath them might just be willing to take a job.

In terms of how often I listen to Rush and Beck... well, they are not people who I would even remotely enjoy listening to but I make an effort to hear and listen to many points of view so have deliberately listened to their rants. Try as I might I just can't take it for long at any one given time. It is like scratching fingernails on the chalkboard multiplied by about a thousand. They turn my stomach to be honest. I so don't get the appeal. Still, I'm doing my best.

Yea I figured that your judgment here was based on limited experience. As noted I don't much listen to Rush anymore. Beck is ok. Hannity I do not like. Savage is nuts. Though I am a Bill O'Reilly fan. Of course when I can I listened to Air America. You want to talk about rants check out Randi Rhodes.

[_truth dancer]

Jason, my only point regarding the family business breaking the law is that I hope your wife doesn't gets hurt.

I didn't for one minute think you would be involved in anything illegal, sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

Seems the country right now is not exactly friendly to those who are hiring IIs. Lots of people are angry and out of a job. I realize there are Americans who don't want to work for minimum wage or work on a farm nevertheless, the country is angry right now. As I said, seems there are cases where supervisors and managers are arrested for knowing and not reporting.

That's all. Just a little FYI, nothing more.

In terms of Rush (& Co.), how much do you have to listen to to know he is a nutcase?



~td~

[_harmony]

Seems the country right now is not exactly friendly to those who are hiring IIs. Lots of people are angry and out of a job. I realize there are Americans who don't want to work for minimum wage or work on a farm nevertheless, the country is angry right now.

Then they need to get off their lazy white butts and find jobs. I live in a rural community, surrounded by immigrants and illegals. They all have documentation. It all looks the same. INS doesn't do a round up unless there's a rise in illegal activity, like drugs or assaults. These people WANT to work, they show up every day and put in long days doing work that no white American will touch. They have crew chiefs that are constantly on the look out for work for their crews, so they move from farm to farm, orchard to orchard. They live in fairly good housing provided by the large orchardists and farmers. They put their kids in school, sometimes night school for the teenagers so they can help in the fields during the day, but all school age children are enrolled because it's free. And they lay low, trying to stay under the radar.

I just wish there was a way that as soon as they arrive here, and can prove they are employed, they are issued a short term work visa or something, so they don't have to live in fear. The way the country handles immigration is a disgrace. If they put together a task force made up of people who employ the illegals, some former illegals, in addition to the policy gurus, they'd come up with a plan that would work. Building a wall along the Rio Grande won't work.

As for the TRI question... every farmer employs illegals. We'd have no one attending the temple from my ward, if that was a problem. Heck, my stake president is an orchardist. He couldn't attend the temple either.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Harmony,

The way the country handles immigration is a disgrace.

I totally agree with you.

I have no answers to the problem. It is huge and having lived in Southern California I have seen first hand the challenges. Some Americans complain but they would not want to pay the price that would result from employee citizens, and lots of people don't want to do manual labor, OTOH, there are a lot of people out of work and maybe they would work under these circumstances? I don't know. The whole thing is a mess.

It just seems to me that lately, with so many people out of work, a lot of American citizens are angry at employers who hire those living here illegally. Right or wrong the sentiment seems strong to me.

I didn't realize you could get a TRI while knowingly breaking the law. Hmmm... oh well. I don't really care either way it just seems odd to me.

~td~

[_Jason Bourne]

In terms of Rush (& Co.), how much do you have to listen to to know he is a nutcase?



~td~

If you think he is a nut case than well... nuff said. I can listen to some on the left that I may disagree with vehemently but not think they are a nut case.

As for the illegal worker issue thanks. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[_Jason Bourne]

I totally agree with you.

I have no answers to the problem. It is huge and having lived in Southern California I have seen first hand the challenges. Some Americans complain but they would not want to pay the price that would result from employee citizens, and lots of people don't want to do manual labor, OTOH, there are a lot of people out of work and maybe they would work under these circumstances? I don't know. The whole thing is a mess.

We desperately need a guest worker program. And we will see if Americans will just go on welfare like so many in our area do, rather than milk a cow or clean a barn.

It just seems to me that lately, with so many people out of work, a lot of American citizens are angry at employers who hire those living here illegally. Right or wrong the sentiment seems strong to me.

Well as Harmony noted they should get to work. It has only been the past 10 years or so my FIL has hired Mexicans. But before he could hardly Americans to take the job. And wow, those he did were usually, dare I say it, pretty much the dregs. They would come to work drunk, not show up and usually only work a few months before they quit.

One radio talk dude on our area says the prisons should make the inmates work at farms. But why? Why should the farmer be burdened with people that are criminals operating key parts of their business? Will the prison send guards with guns to watch over them?

I didn't realize you could get a TRI while knowingly breaking the law. Hmmm... oh well. I don't really care either way it just seems odd to me.

As noted the Church lets illegal be baptized, go to the temple and sends them on a mission from a US ward. Guess they think this stuff is more important than laws of the land.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Jason,

I can and do listen to all sorts of people with all sorts of views and totally love it, I actually seek this out. I have found very few people who I can't come to understand and respect whether they do or do not share my views.

Rush is a case all to himself in my opinion. I can't think of anyone worse actually, but what astounds me is that there are people who follow him. I mean seriously.. WOW!

I have listened to him for several hours at various times for the specific purpose of trying to "get it". So far just can't see the appeal.

As noted the Church lets illegal be baptized, go to the temple and sends them on a mission from a US ward. Guess they think this stuff is more important than laws of the land.

Baptizing someone doesn't seem to be illegal Jason. Purposefully breaking the law by hiring them is something else altogether in my opinion. But again, I don't really care one way or the other I'm just surprised is all.

Maybe it shouldn't be all that surprising.

;-)

~td~

[_Calculus Crusader]

Let's not forget that Republicans got us into this mess.

As did Democrats. Glass-Steagall was repealed under Clinton, not Bush. Bill Clinton, Chuck "Putzhead" Schumer, and Barney "Name Names" Frank are as at least as responsible as any Republican.