Proof that the Church listens

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_John Larsen
_Emeritus
Posts: 1895
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:16 pm

Proof that the Church listens

Post by _John Larsen »

On September 12th of last year I made this post on MAD: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=37799 (The text of the full post is included at the bottom of this post). Truth be told, this is a recycled post that I made on RFM a few years ago. The gist of the post, is that I accuse the Church of deliberately posting a misleading statement on its website. Well I checked tonight, the web page, located at http://www.LDS.org/pa/display/0,17884,5511-1,00.html, has been updated:

Zina D. H. Young, a midwife and an educator, worked closely with Eliza R. Snow in the Relief Society. In 1870 Brigham Young called Sister Young to promote silk production among the women of the Church as part of the Church’s emphasis on home industry and self-sufficiency. During her presidency the Relief Society affiliated with the United States National Council of Women and campaigned for women’s suffrage. Sister Young continued the Relief Society’s emphasis on health care, grain storage, education, and compassionate service.


The offending sentence, "Widowed by her first husband, she raised two sons from that marriage, one daughter from her later marriage to Brigham Young, and four of Brigham Young’s other children” has been struck.

The original post:
The Church’s website contains, in my opinion, a clear and deliberate misrepresentation of history.

This is the biography of Zina Diantha Huntington Young, the second president of the Relief Society: http://www.LDS.org/pa/display/0,17884,5511-1,00.html (downloaded 9/12/08). I have included the complete text here:

”Zina D. H. Young, a midwife and an educator, worked closely with Eliza R. Snow in the Relief Society. In 1870 Brigham Young called Sister Young to promote silk production among the women of the Church as part of the Church’s emphasis on home industry and self-sufficiency. During her presidency the Relief Society affiliated with the United States National Council of Women and campaigned for women’s suffrage. Sister Young continued the Relief Society’s emphasis on health care, grain storage, education, and compassionate service. Widowed by her first husband, she raised two sons from that marriage, one daughter from her later marriage to Brigham Young, and four of Brigham Young’s other children”

Notice the chronology offered by the text: “widowed by her first husband” and then “later marriage to Brigham Young”. In fact her first husband died 9 years after Brigham.

Here is the actual time line of events:
7 Mar 1841 Marriage to Henry Jacobs
27 Oct 1841 Marriage to Joseph Smith
2 Jan 1842 Birth of Zebulon Jacobs, fathered by Henry Jacobs
27 Jun 1844 Death of Joseph Smith
2 Feb 1846 Marriage to Brigham Young (Zina was 8 months pregnant)
22 Mar 1846 Birth of Henry C. Jacobs, fathered by Henry Jacobs
3 Apr 1850 Birth of Zina Young, fathered by Brigham Young
29 Aug 1877 Death of Brigham Young
1 Aug 1886 Death of Henry Jacobs

Some key elements bear review:
*Zina was married to Jacob in Nauvoo by Mormon clergy. It was a legal and lawful marriage by both US law and Mormon law.
*Both Zina and Henry were active believing members before their marriage.
*Joseph Smith took Zina in a celestial marriage a mere 7 months after she was married to Jacob.
*The marriage to Jacob was obviously still recognized by Zina and Henry since she bore 2 children with Henry after the marriage.
*Brigham Young and Heber Kimball married all of the Joseph Smith “widows” following his death regardless of their relationship to their first husbands.
*Zina did not need to be taken care of; she had a husband who was active in the church.
*Henry never left the Church, he died in Salt Lake City.
*Henry and Zina were never divorced.
*Brigham Young’s relationship with Zina went beyond taking care of a widow since she was no widow and he sired a daughter with her.

Given the above information, the Church’s official biography can only be seen as a lie. This information is well known inside and outside of the Church.

These dates can be verified at http://www.familysearch.org/:
Henry Bailey JACOBS (AFN: 1ZH6-9X)
Zina Diantha HUNTINGTON (AFN: 8R65-S9)
Brigham YOUNG (AFN: 3ZD8-KC)
Zebulon William JACOBS (AFN:234B-S6)
Henry Chariton JACOBS (AFN:1875-4N)
Zina Presendia YOUNG (AFN:1CK9-M2)

You can also read FAIR’s bizarre response to this at:
http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... r_Men.html

_John Larsen
_Emeritus
Posts: 1895
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:16 pm

Re: Proof that the Church listens

Post by _John Larsen »

_bcspace
_Emeritus
Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: Proof that the Church listens

Post by _bcspace »

So what was it you think the Church was trying to hide?
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Proof that the Church listens

Post by _Dr. Shades »

bcspace wrote:So what was it you think the Church was trying to hide?

The fact that Brigham Young impregnated another man's wife.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_bcspace
_Emeritus
Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: Proof that the Church listens

Post by _bcspace »

You can also read FAIR’s bizarre response to this at:


It's not bizzare at all. In fact, it makes perfect sense. There is a process of time which results in Zina no longer considers herself married to Henry. The answer to why there is no record of divorce is quite reasonable:

There are two points at which a divorce could reasonably have taken place: In Nauvoo, at about the time that Zina and Brigham were married, or in Iowa, after Henry left for England. There is no record of any divorce in Hancock County, Illinois.68 This is not surprising; for the nineteen months from the martyrdom in June 1844 until the Saints were driven from Nauvoo in February 1846, the relationship between the Saints and the various levels of government was tenuous, at best. The Saints did not trust the state or federal governments, having felt betrayed at every turn over the years. There is evidence that the Nauvoo municipal government was very dysfunctional during this period, and then entirely non-existent after the revocation of the Nauvoo Charter in January 1845. A year later, when Zina and Brigham were sealed, it is doubtful that the Saints would have turned to those they viewed as hostile enemies to request divorces.

The situation is even more unclear as the Saints migrated westward through frontier Iowa. According to Iowa territorial law in 1846, divorces were granted by district courts.69 At the time there were only three district courts established in the Iowa Territory, and these covered only the eastern-most counties of the state. 70 There were no District Courts that covered the unincorporated areas (the "Indian lands" where Mt. Pisgah was located), nor were there any in 1846 in any of the counties bordering the unincorporated areas.

Critics who complain of Henry and Zina not having a "legal and lawful" divorce fail to point out what constitutes "legal and lawful" when it comes to a frontier where there is no established government. Who, exactly, should Henry and Zina have gone to in order to satisfy our modern sensibilities of what constitutes a "legal and lawful" dissolution of marriage?

The inaccessibility of government and the hostility of the trail may not be the only reasons why a formal divorce was not sought by Henry and Zina. Many people during the era, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, particularly those who were poor and transient (conditions that certainly applied to this couple), would engage in self-divorce. Rather than seek out the approbation of authority that was often seen as meddlesome, distant, and aloof, couples would simply agree to dissolve their marriage, and then each go their separate ways. This seemed, to those predisposed to distrust a hostile government, a practical and pragmatic solution to ending a marriage, and appears to be the path chosen by Henry and Zina.


It looks more like critics of the Church making a mountain out of a molehill to me.

by the way, your link didn't work.

Zina and Her Men
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_dblagent007
_Emeritus
Posts: 1068
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Proof that the Church listens

Post by _dblagent007 »

Proof that the Church listens to Allen Wyatt, not John Larsen.

http://www.fairblog.org/2008/12/27/zina ... ment-11241
_Lucretia MacEvil
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:01 am

Re: Proof that the Church listens

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

bcspace

It's not bizzare at all. In fact, it makes perfect sense. There is a process of time which results in Zina no longer considers herself married to Henry. The answer to why there is no record of divorce is quite reasonable:


(blah, blah, blah)

But how does all this make it correct to say that Zina was widowed? At best, it might mean that Zina and Henry were divorced in some manner of speaking at some point in time. (Likely one of those $5 divorces that BY handed out so many of.) But, according to "In Sacred Loneliness," Zina and Henry Jacobs received their endowments together on 1/3/46. A month later, Zina married Joseph Smith "for eternity" and BY for "time" with Henry standing witness. Zina and Henry set out for the West together, their child born on the trail. Then, mid-journey, Henry was sent on a mission by BY. At Winter's Quarters, Zina began living openly as a wife of BY.

In all the stories from that period that I've read so far, it seems that "divorce" and "separation" were basically the same thing.

I take exception to this part of the LDS website also:

In 1870 Brigham Young called Sister Young to promote silk production among the women of the Church as part of the Church’s emphasis on home industry and self-sufficiency.


That's putting a bit of spin on the situation. It seems the real reason the church wanted the women to be earning their own ways as much as possible is because the men weren't capable (or willing) to support their many wives (and by "men" I mean particularly BY and Heber C. Kimball). What the men gained was power over the women, their first husbands, and their entire families by making these dynastic marriages. Power in this life, and supposedly the next life as well. I suspect that sex was an incidental benefit compared to the power and control they gained.
The person who is certain and who claims divine warrant for his certainty belongs now to the infancy of our species. Christopher Hitchens

Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. Frater
_Mary
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Proof that the Church listens

Post by _Mary »

I've just been reading some of the letters that Henry wrote to Zina, and it appears that he never stopped loving her.

From Allan W's Fair article. Zina and her Men.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... r_Men.html

Written August 1846 from New York at the beginning of his mission.

Zina I have not forgotten you, my love is as ever the same, and much more abundantly, and hope that it will continue to grow stronger and stronger to all eternity, worlds without end, when families are joined together and become one consolidated in truth, when the keys of the Resurrection will be restored, and the fullness of the Gospel given the Law of the Celestial Kingdom be in force and every man and woman will know their place and have to keep it. Though there will be shiftings in time and revisions in eternity, and all be made right in the end. You told me in your letter that you calculated to start the next morning for the big camp. Well, may the Lord bless you and my little children with life and good health and a safe journey. Take good care of the cow and steers and all I left with you. Keep it safe till I return, for I will then again give my best respects to Brother Brigham and family


Letter from Henry B. Jacobs to Mrs. Zina D. Jacobs, Brooklyn, L.I. NY, to Camp of Isreael, Grand Isleand, August 19, 1846, LDS Archives (MS 3248).


Having just read Newell and Avery's BYU paper on Emma's second husband, and the churches ? efforts to stop the marriage, I quite admire Emma for putting Brigham in his proverbial place.

It ignored the threat made to her
by Almon W. Babbitt that he could make her so poor that she would beg
pardon of the Twelve and follow them.2 It stated that she would determine
her own course in the choice of a companion despite Babbitt’s comment
that she and Lewis “had no right to marry.”3 It united her for the second
time in her life to a man she loved.



http://byustudies.BYU.edu/shop/pdfsrc/1 ... Newell.pdf

She would have none of it. Pity Zina didn't do the same. (in my opinion)

Mary
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Proof that the Church listens

Post by _Chap »

bcspace wrote:It looks more like critics of the Church making a mountain out of a molehill to me.


I have no doubt that it looks that way to bcspace.

But I think that 99% of those who do not have the benefit of the Holy Ghost whispering the truth in their ear will continue to see the story of Zina and Henry as one of the many rather stomach-turning examples of what Smith began when he made up the story about an angel threatening him with destruction if he did not introduce polygamy.

The failure to comprehend how obvious this view seems to those outside the CoJCoLDS is just another sign of how intellectually marginal is the tiny minority of believing LDS in the western world. Suits me fine.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_The Dude
_Emeritus
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Re: Proof that the Church listens

Post by _The Dude »

If this board had a healthier mix of critics and apologists, I bet one of the apologists would have pointed out that what we have here is a case of continuing inspiration from God, and not a change made because of listening to outside critics. Just the same as ending the practice of polygamy and discriminatory priesthood policy towards Africans, changes to LDS owned websites occur under the Lord's guidance. John Larsen may as well say this is evidence that God listens, even though it contradicts his atheist faith.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
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