The Miracle of Apologetics

[_cinepro]

I was recently giving my children one of my standard lectures about how they live in the greatest time in the history of the world. They have easy access to more books, movies, music and "information" than any other people in the history of the world. They can know more about any subject they wish than anyone who has ever lived in a time before. Truly, it is a wonderful time to be alive for children who have an interest in such things.

As I thought more about it, I began to consider the Miracle of Apologetics.

In the Church, "revelation" gets a lot of lip service. We talk all about God giving knowledge, restoring this or that, and giving us scriptures so we can understand His plans and feelings on certain subjects. And I'm not arguing the importance (and necessity) of having a spiritual witness of the truthfulness of the gospel and the Church's core claims.

But for those who have an interest in the Church, the scriptures, and the "details" behind the stories and doctrines, I think it is easy to overlook the miracle of Apologetics and scholars, and Apologetic theories, and their ability to grant us knowledge that eluded even previous prophets and apostles.

Because of apologetic writings, any Church member can do a reading and research and understand more about Book of Mormon geography and peoples than any past prophets had. Twenty minutes on the FARMS website and you could pass up Joseph Fielding Smith without breaking a sweat.

Thanks to apologists, future generations will understand the story of Noah's flood (and the subsequent covenant) with far more accuracy than any LDS Prophet or Apostle of the last 180 years.

Apologists allow us to better understand the story of Adam and Eve, how they were born from mortal, non-human mortal parents who themselves were the result of evolutionary development. Such knowledge eludes even modern LDS church leaders and curriculum writers.

Modern scholars and apologists allow us to understand the true nature and provenance of the Joseph Smith papyri, Kinderhook plates, Zelph skeleton and other "artifacts" to a much greater degree than even Joseph Smith himself.

Modern apologists have made known to us the many cultures and peoples not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon, who subtley mixed with and effected the Jaredites and Lehites (people who are still unknown and unmentioned by modern and past LDS prophets and apostles).

And apologists help us to understand Mormon Polygamy and the priesthood ban far better than any statements from the Church leaders (ironically, apologists even help us to ignore statements from Church leaders if necessary, while apologists never encourage us to ignore other apologists and listen to Church leaders if there is a contradiction.)

Critics often complain that the heavens are "silent", and that God has been negligent in His proclivity to reveal knew and interesting things. But if the apologists are correct in their theories and suggestions, then God hasn't been silent, he has just shifted his conduit from the pulpit to the Fair Wiki.

[_The Dude]

A miracle indeed. Prophets have spoken of this day, when they said everybody would have his own Urim and Thummum. Especially when you think of how a bright computer screen hurts your eyes and makes you want to view it with outside light blocked out, for example, by placing your iPhone in the bottom of a hat.

[_neworder]

Critics often complain that the heavens are "silent", and that God has been negligent in His proclivity to reveal knew and interesting things. But if the apologists are correct in their theories and suggestions, then God hasn't been silent, he has just shifted his conduit from the pulpit to the Fair Wiki.

I love to read cinepro's posts. His post are always fun to read and very true.

I am trying to think of the last time a Mormon apologist has recommended a book written by a prophet or an an apostle. It seems like they always recommend some other book written by a fellow Mormon apologist.

It seems that the apologists are the ones that are bringing forth more information and the LDS leaders are more like cheerleaders.

[_Runtu]

Brilliant, as usual.

[_Black Moclips]

Yeah, I have a man crush on Cinepro (well his posts, anyway ). Great post!

This needs to be posted on the "other" board. If you are banned Cinepro, I will take the bullet and post it. I really want to see the reactions.

[_The Nehor]

If you're under the impression that Prophets are supposed to teach Book of Mormon geography, the reasons for commandments, and history then you're beyond hopeless.

[_Jason Bourne]

If you're under the impression that Prophets are supposed to teach Book of Mormon geography, the reasons for commandments, and history then you're beyond hopeless.

But Nehor

You miss the entire point. Prophets have said lots about Book of Mormon geography. But the apologists know better now. GAs, the ones speaking for God, were just expressing opinion.

And they have spoken about evolution, creation, the ark. But the apologists know better. GAs, the ones speaking for God, were just expressing opinion.

And Prophets and apostles have talked about polygamy being essential for exaltation, but the apologists tells us this was just 19th century rhetoric to support, promote and encourage the principle.

Apologist frequently dismiss the difficult and uncomfortable things as only their opinion and then they do promote other authors more than they do Church leaders. And we are told that the ones who speak for God cannot be bothered with clarifying questions and difficult issues because they are too busy proclaiming Christ and building the Kingdom of God.

Say what???

[_The Nehor]

If you're under the impression that Prophets are supposed to teach Book of Mormon geography, the reasons for commandments, and history then you're beyond hopeless.

But Nehor

You miss the entire point. Prophets have said lots about Book of Mormon geography. But the apologists know better now. GAs, the ones speaking for God, were just expressing opinion.

And they have spoken about evolution, creation, the ark. But the apologists know better. GAs, the ones speaking for God, were just expressing opinion.

And Prophets and apostles have talked about polygamy being essential for exaltation, but the apologists tells us this was just 19th century rhetoric to support, promote and encourage the principle.

Apologist frequently dismiss the difficult and uncomfortable things as only their opinion and then they do promote other authors more than they do Church leaders. And we are told that the ones who speak for God cannot be bothered with clarifying questions and difficult issues because they are too busy proclaiming Christ and building the Kingdom of God.

Say what???

I don't understand. Are you trying to say that I respect the words of apologists more then those of Apostles and Prophets? Because, if so,

I think most critics (and unfortunately some apologists) here have spent so much time in the arguments of critics and apologists that you've lost the big picture. To be honest, if I was dying to know the answers to the burning questions apologists and critics wrangle over I appeal to God and not the latest article at FARMS.

Prophets have not spoken at length or with much repetition about evolution, creation, the ark, etc. Most references are in passing and used to illustrate good Gospel Principles. I've read the whole JoD and as a whole it talks about practical things we need to do to find eternal life. If all you discuss are sound bytes eventually you turn the speakers into caricatures.

[_rcrocket]

Cinepro is guilty of creating a highly artificial construct of what the Church "is" when it really isn't that way at all. I suppose it is just another variation on the straw man.

1. Book of Mormon geography? It is true that many FARMS-types, and I include John Sorenson, have created a cottage industry of highly speculative tomes putting the Book of Mormon here and yon. The reality, however, is that without exception, the general authorities have taken two different approaches. The overwhelming primary approach is that they adopt the hemispheric model, and that Cumorah is that hill in New York. The second is that they say it doesn't really matter, although this is a distant second. These FARMS apologists do not speak for the Church on this matter and nobody in authority claims that they do. Elder Oaks is on record saying that he finds the theory interesting, but that's it. So, FARMS and FAIR are not ex cathedra as Cinepro argues, which you all lap up as the truth as lemmings, to mix metaphors.

2. Cinepro states: "Apologists allow us to better understand the story of Adam and Eve, how they were born from mortal, non-human mortal parents who themselves were the result of evolutionary development. Such knowledge eludes even modern LDS church leaders and curriculum writers." The last I checked, the Church has an official statement on evolution. It takes no position. As one who has studied the controversy surrounding Man: His Origin and Destiny, I can fairly state that the general authorities who have weighed in on the subject with some precision have supported the prospect of evolution and have done a better job about it than those who oppose evolution. I, personally, don't really know whether inter-species evolution is all that sustainable (where suddenly, a descendant can no longer breed with a fellow descendant but can breed with a new descendant), but I see the argument and have read the literature. It is not inconsistent with Church teaching and the Church doesn't teach it one way or t'other.

3. Cinepro states: "Modern scholars and apologists allow us to understand the true nature and provenance of the Joseph Smith papyri, Kinderhook plates, Zelph skeleton and other "artifacts" to a much greater degree than even Joseph Smith himself." I suppose, if one can figure out the mind of Joseph Smith himself. But, to a huge extent, what is known or not known about these events (leaving the Book of Abraham to one side) is based upon what people think Joseph Smith was thinking.

4. Cinepro states: "Modern apologists have made known to us the many cultures and peoples not specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon, who subtley [sic] mixed with and effected the Jaredites and Lehites (people who are still unknown and unmentioned by modern and past LDS prophets and apostles)." Truth be told, LDS general authorities have had no reason and no occasion to opine as to the presence of others. So they haven't. Why is it important that there were others or there were not others? Does it all come down to the DNA issue and is that why "others" are so important?

5. Cinepro: "And apologists help us to understand Mormon Polygamy and the priesthood ban far better than any statements from the Church leaders (ironically, apologists even help us to ignore statements from Church leaders if necessary, while apologists never encourage us to ignore other apologists and listen to Church leaders if there is a contradiction.)" How deeply cynical. Truth be told, the study of human history and sociology is a fruitful area in Mormonism. Facts and details have been exhumed that general authorities could not possibly have known. I find it interesting how little some of the general authorities knew of certain circumstances, how they erred and sometimes dissembled under pressure. But, they don't speak ex cathedra either. The Church doesn't work that way. Sts Peter and Paul would have never withstood Cinepro's cynical view of what religion "ought to be," although for him religion is a farce and he's just outwardly going along for the ride.

[_silentkid]

...religion is a farce...

QFT.