The Miracle of Apologetics

[_The Nehor]

The curious thing is how these new theories come from academic channels instead of Priesthood authorities.

These new theories may come from academic channels, but they are not bereft of priesthood authority or revelation. I'm pretty sure that Dr. Peterson and Dr. Hamblin and other notable apologists have prayed for a spiritual witness of the truthfulness of their theories and have received those feelings of peace and enlightenment that they are entitled to as confirmed members of God's true church. They have felt the guiding hand of the lord in their search for explanations to difficult gospel issues. They are the new breed of preisthood authority, even Academic Authorities, which are far superior to those General ones.

Yes, and LDS scientists pray to know the truthfulness of every new theory they come up with, LDS bakers bless every loaf of bread they make to nourish and strengthen bodies, LDS tech writers pray over the accuracy of every document, and LDS politicians seek the final word of God for every piece of legislation they vote on......

Riiiight....

[_The Nehor]

1. A friend confides that she is having difficulty understanding why God would deny black people the priesthood for 100+ years. She wants to learn more about the ban.

Do you tell her to search the scriptures, and the words of the Prophets available at LDS.org, or do you refer her to the FAIR Wiki and other apologetic writings?

I tell them to fast and pray about it. If they want information on the history of the ban, I might recommend something.

2. Your brother has questions about Noah's ark, and whether the covenant signified by the rainbow applied to the whole planet. He is also wondering about whether or not Noah was a real person, and whether the flood itself covered the whole planet.

Do you tell her to search the scriptures, and the words of the Prophets available at LDS.org, or do you refer her to the FAIR Wiki and other apologetic writings?

Neither, if they feel that strongly that they need information, prayer is recommended.

3. Your son is a first year biology student at BYU. After learning about evolution, he has questions about whether or not Adam and Eve were really the first humans on the planet, and whether all living humans are descended from them. He also doubts that Adam lived ~6,000 years ago. He also wants to know if there was any physical death for plants, animals and people before the Fall of Adam.

Do you tell him to search the scriptures, and the words of the Prophets available at LDS.org, or do you refer him to the FAIR Wiki and other apologetic writings?

I get him copies of the First Presidency declaration and say that beyond that he can figure it our as he likes.

4. Your daughter comes home from seminary, and says she isn't clear about who will be resurrected. Will it be everyone, or just the righteous?

Do you tell her to search the scriptures, and the words of the Prophets available at LDS.org, or do you refer him to the FAIR Wiki and other apologetic writings?

I give her chapter and verse in the Book of Mormon. That one is easy.

In any area where there isn't an "overlap" with science, we look at the scriptures and words of the latter day prophets as the simple and final truth. But the second any "scientific" bearing is taken, suddenly there are a bazillion reasons to read the scriptures and prophetic utterances a different way, or set them aside in favor of more enlightened views.

You actually have a point here though I bet I'm taking it differently then you are. There are things we know and things we don't from the scriptures. When it spawns bad science we eventually discredit it. However, the issue is that we then have people pontificating on the Three Degrees of Glory from a limited body of information and they can do so safely with no fear of rebuttal their bad extrapolations can become in the minds of some established fact. Thus, the need to differentiate what we do and don't know.

[_cinepro]

This is what I mean by not getting the larger picture. How many LDS know or care about the apologists and their cutting edge theories? Most of the General Authorities know little about Apologetics and don't follow it at all. Critics have ballooned a relatively small budget organization on the fringe of the Church into a shadow organization that secretly controls the Church and the pattern of popular thought within it. I've lived over half of my life in the Church without knowing about it. My father who has served as Bishop, High Counselor, and other supposedly 'high' callings knew the name but had no idea what they did when I mentioned it in passing while visiting last night.

That is a good point. I guess I just imagine a time when a Church member who wanted to know more about something related to the scriptures or other stuff could turn to the copious amounts of sermons and statements put forth on different subjects by the apostles and prophets.

But now, LDS with a similar desire to learn must often turn to unofficial apologetic/scholarly sources. Which is all fine and dandy, until those unofficial sources have to tell you not to pay attention to certain past prophetic statements (which at the time were considered "official" to Church members).

I understand that apologists are at peace with this situation. Just wondering how we got here. Was it when the Ensign stopped publishing "I Have a Question"?

[_cinepro]

I give her chapter and verse in the Book of Mormon. That one is easy.

The fact that you consider that one "easy" (with accompanying "chapter and verse") but the other three less so is the point of this thread.

Each of those questions has been clearly answered in the scriptures and over the pulpit by latter day Prophets and Apostles (and #2 and #3 are answered by the official LDS Sunday school curriculum every four years).

That's what I find so fascinating.

[_silentkid]

Yes, and LDS scientists pray to know the truthfulness of every new theory they come up with, LDS bakers bless every loaf of bread they make to nourish and strengthen bodies, LDS tech writers pray over the accuracy of every document, and LDS politicians seek the final word of God for every piece of legislation they vote on......

Riiiight....

I'm glad you enjoyed my facetious response to The Dude's facetious response. When I was writing my master's thesis at BYU, I prayed about every phylogenetic tree that PAUP calculated. I only included those trees that I could spiritually confirm in my final draft.

[_Inconceivable]

I've come to the conclusion that if Mormon shepherds did not continually deceive Jesus' sheep, there would be no reason for the existance of apologists.

I feel the same way about apologists and the founders of Mormonism as Brigham Young valued lawyers.


Great post cinepro.

[_The Nehor]

I give her chapter and verse in the Book of Mormon. That one is easy.

The fact that you consider that one "easy" (with accompanying "chapter and verse") but the other three less so is the point of this thread.

Each of those questions has been clearly answered in the scriptures and over the pulpit by latter day Prophets and Apostles (and #2 and #3 are answered by the official LDS Sunday school curriculum every four years).

That's what I find so fascinating.

I don't think #2 and 3 are answered in the Scriptures.

[_rcrocket]

There is precedent, counselor.

What other of my personal attributes are fair game for mocking? Hmm.

Your premise is false. The Church does not defer to the musings of scholars or pseudo-scholars about where Cumorah might be, or as to the origins of Polynesians. You may think that is the case, given your total immersion and obsession with the MAD board, but quite frankly few General Authorities likely give FAIR and FARMS a second thought.

I'm sure that Mormon scholarship has some role in what General Authorities might think or say or opine as to, just as higher Biblical criticism affected Talmage in Jesus the Christ, or Darwinism affected Widstoe. But to say that revelation has been surrendered to the musings of speculators is just to pander to the unhappy masses who need their fix of anti-Mormonism of the brand peddled here to justify their uncertain departure from the Church. (If it were certain, they wouldn't waste their time here.)

[_Mister Scratch]

There is precedent, counselor.

What other of my personal attributes are fair game for mocking? Hmm.

Your premise is false. The Church does not defer to the musings of scholars or pseudo-scholars about where Cumorah might be, or as to the origins of Polynesians.

The (fairly) recent changes to the Book of Mormon's intro would strongly suggest otherwise, counselor.

You may think that is the case, given your total immersion and obsession with the MAD board, but quite frankly few General Authorities likely give FAIR and FARMS a second thought.

DCP has said that many of the Apostles are well-read in FARMS's Mopologetic materials. Certainly, I have seen Elder Oaks and others quote from apologetic publications. The reality would seem to be that far more of the Brethren are aware of Mopologetic issues than the apologists would like us to believe.

I'm sure that Mormon scholarship has some role in what General Authorities might think or say or opine as to, just as higher Biblical criticism affected Talmage in Jesus the Christ, or Darwinism affected Widstoe. But to say that revelation has been surrendered to the musings of speculators is just to pander to the unhappy masses who need their fix of anti-Mormonism of the brand peddled here to justify their uncertain departure from the Church. (If it were certain, they wouldn't waste their time here.)[/quote]

First of all (as you'll learn in my new thread), I feel confident that the top apologists have been called by the GAs to serve as apologists. I don't think they are "speculating" at all, and I think that they believe they are sincerely doing the Lord's work.

Further, when was the last time that the Church seemed to do anything according to the "revelations" of the Brethren? The change to the Book of Mormon? Apologetics-influenced. The MMM memorial? The result of a failure on the part of the Mopologists. Lockdown on Book of Abraham material? Again: related to apologetics. The fact of the matter is that the MI is leading the way in terms of intellectual, doctrinal, and (arguably) spiritual revelation in the Church. Cinepro is dead right on this one.

[_Tiktaalik]

The General Authorities have become smart enough to know that when they open their mouths and pronounce on verfiable matters, what they say often comes back to bite them in the ass.

It's far safer to let unofficial apologists fight the battles so that they can maintain their dignity/credibility and remain above the fray, as it were.