MatthewG Stages an Ambush at MAD

[_Enuma Elish]

I don't know how many total articles John has authored,

Well then, Dave, you are avoiding the issue. You told Latayne that you disapproved of people who "misrepresent" their accomplishments. Well, Tvedtnes claimed to have authored "300 articles," when, in fact, he was counting spoofs and scripture quizzes among the number.

Indeed, I do disapprove of people who misrepresent their academic accomplishments. I take the error especially personal when it is done in the field of biblical scholarship.

I'm afraid, however, that I have no idea what you're referring to. If JT did in fact misrepresent his academic accomplishments (which based upon my associations with him I find hard to believe) then of course I would not approve of the act.

Next question, please.

[_Mister Scratch]

I'm afraid, however, that I have no idea what you're referring to. If JT did in fact misrepresent his academic accomplishments (which based upon my associations with him I find hard to believe) then of course I would not approve of the act.

Next question, please.

Check out his website:

http://www.bookofmormonresearch.org/index/

In particular, this:

John A. Tvedtnes (MA in Linguistics and MA in Middle East Studies (Hebrew), University of Utah) retired in 2007 as a senior resident scholar with the Institute for the Study and Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts at Brigham Young University. He has taught at the University of Utah and at the Brigham Young University Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies and the BYU Salt Lake Center and has lectured in Israel and the United States. At this writing, he has authored 10 books and more than 300 articles.

Now, given the context of this, what are you led to believe? Do you in any way suspect that among that rather larger number would be things like scripture quizzes and screw-around pieces for SHIELDS? Or, instead, are you led to believe that Tvedtnes is a hardcore scholar who has produced an astonishing body of work?

[_Enuma Elish]

Now, given the context of this, what are you led to believe? Do you in any way suspect that among that rather larger number would be things like scripture quizzes and screw-around pieces for SHIELDS? Or, instead, are you led to believe that Tvedtnes is a hardcore scholar who has produced an astonishing body of work?

I believe that Tvedtnes is a hardcore Book of Mormon scholar (in fact one of the finest ever) and I would assume that a list of 300 published articles would include both academic and non-academic works. I know he told me once that he was working on some pieces of historical fiction, though I'm not sure whether or not those works have been published.

Are you suggesting that if JT has published some scripture quizzes and "screw-around pieces for SHIELDS" that he is not a prolific scholar who has produced an astonishing body of work?

[_Gadianton]

Well David, while I understand why you and your colleagues would be skeptical of degrees obtained from nonaccredited schools, I am kinda doubtful that you're impressing anyone other than fellow apologists. I mean, Bible scholars from accredited universities I would imagine aren't raving like you are over Tvedness's Book of Mormon scholarship. I'd guess that they are going to look down on his Book of Mormon scholarship the same way, and for the same reasons they look down at conservative Bible scholarship from nonaccredited universities. It seems to me the Mopologetic victory of being able to boast an accredited degree is kind of a hollow victory when their faithful output wouldn't be regarded any higher.

[_The Dude]

Hey the Dude,

Well, I've read a couple apologetic pieces by T and I thought they were pretty crappy.

And he's written some things that I too disagree with, but that hardly negates the validity of his entire work.

Sure, anything's possible. On another thread The Nehor said something that was funny as hell, which was like a diamond compared to the crap he usually posts. Same could be true for the next thing I read from T. But so far... well, mostly I remember something he wrote about Isaiah variants in the Book of Mormon. What did you think of that one?

[_Enuma Elish]

Sure, anything's possible. On another thread The Nehor said something that was funny as hell, which was like a diamond compared to the crap he usually posts. Same could be true for the next thing I read from T. But so far... well, mostly I remember something he wrote about Isaiah variants in the Book of Mormon. What did you think of that one?

Well, I believe that so far, the most important work published on the issue of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon has come via David P. Wright. So I suspect that you and I would agree on the problematic nature of John's work on Isaiah variants.

[_Enuma Elish]

Well David, while I understand why you and your colleagues would be skeptical of degrees obtained from nonaccredited schools

I'm not "skeptical" of degrees obtained from non accredited conservative Christian divinity schools, I simply believe that they need to be represented for what they are: a theological degree from a non accredited divinity school.

I am kinda doubtful that you're impressing anyone other than fellow apologists.

If you knew me, you would know that I seldom, if ever, in my entire life have tried to impress anyone. My absolute inability to care what others think about me is unfortunately a serious social and professional deficiency.

I mean, Bible scholars from accredited universities I would imagine aren't raving like you are over Tvedness's Book of Mormon scholarship.

Though obviously there exists some significant overlaps, Biblical scholarship and Book of Mormon scholarship are two separate fields.

I'd guess that they are going to look down on his Book of Mormon scholarship the same way, and for the same reasons they look down at conservative Bible scholarship from nonaccredited universities

No. Most people recognize that degrees and scholarship are not synonymous issues.

It seems to me the Mopologetic victory of being able to boast an accredited degree is kind of a hollow victory when their faithful output wouldn't be regarded any higher.

You're comparing apples with oranges. But still, even your faulty analogy can be proven incorrect on its own terms.

Did you read Raymond Westbrook's endorsement of the legal analysis John Welch adopts for ancient scripture in the book The Legal Cases in the Book of Mormon?

Westbrook is one of the world's most influential biblical scholars dealing with ancient law.

I found that rather impressive.

[_antishock8]

Well, I'm just gratified to know that I've now been published over 2,000 times. God damn I'm one hell of a scholar.

[_Gadianton]

David,

I have no doubt that you'll make your mark too in the secular world. And the fact that you don't try to impress your fellow apologists doesn't mean you haven't impressed them. I never claimed you're in it for the glory.

If degrees and scholarship were entirely "separate issues" as you claim, then DCP wouldn't fall all over himself trying to connect the output of FARMS to the degrees of the authors which, according to you, have nothing to do with their scholarly output. I'll be sure to quote you to him the next time he goes down this path.

But while your comments here essentially have just sent DCP down the river, they don't diffuse my argument. Perhaps it would be better put if I said, a theological degree from an unaccredited university is not the same as a degree from an accredited one. Some graduates from unaccredited universities promote themselves as if there is no difference. Likewise, FARMS scholarship and the output of John Tvedness on the Book of Mormon, is not real pee-reviewed scholarship. Some apologists, one in particular whose name starts with a D, tries to promote and defend the output of FARMS as if it's comparable, no different in kind, every bit as reputable.

And real Bible scholars such as yourself, the ones who haven't vowed to "shift the paradigm" no matter how they need to in order to make their own tenets of faith come out true and provable through scholarship, will likely look down on both for the same reasons.

[_TAK]

If you knew me, you would know that I seldom, if ever, in my entire life have tried to impress anyone. My absolute inability to care what others think about me is unfortunately a serious social and professional deficiency.

David that may be true.. but some observers may view your blog as a personal temple to your own intelligence and vanity..