Is the World Better or Worse?

[_harmony]

Are these people reproducing irresponsibly?

Do you mean do they have 2.1 children per household? I don't know. It's not a statistic I'm tracking. I'm just trying to work with the ones who live risky lifestyles related to my specific concern. Reproduction is not one of the risks.

[_JAK]

How would you “put the brakes on them dying at significantly higher rates”?

Every problem has a solution, a combination of solutions. I cannot save the world, JAK. I can't even save my friend, my neighbor, from dying. My husband took her to the hospital last night, and things are not looking good. But if I just sit around, wringing my hands, talking about the massiveness of the problem... the problem will just get bigger tomorrow.

I have an idea (isn't that where every solution starts? someone has an idea?) and with a little help from a friend, a tiny bit of seed money, less than $3000, I put the idea into action a couple of years ago in a very limited population with very specific partners. It was a spectacular success but needed a lot of tweaking, and I don't have time for tweaking when I run a team of fundraisers. The head of the agency at that time had no interest in my idea, but she has now retired. The current head of my agency is a friend of mine, who heard about my idea, and sees promise in it, because for him, we should be looking for solutions to our local problems, not just raising money for national.

He's asked me to start developing the idea further with the idea of implementing it across our rural counties within 2-3 years. I'll run a mini of the idea in June at one of my events, and the full blown pilot this fall at another staff person's event. And we'll study the evaluations, make appropriate changes, and see if we have any impact on the lifestyle choices that keep the poor so far ahead of other economic classifications in the dying department. (when I say we, I mean myself, my friend the CEO, and his friend on the faculty at our biggest state university).

I don't need a lot of money for this idea, JAK. I'm not trying to save the world tomorrow. What I need is some specific skills in cultural competency, commuity mobilization, and network building. And I have those. I've got 6-7 years to show progress, before my friend has to stand in front of the Board and show that over time this idea has made a significant impact. I know this already works on a limited basis (and I have the national awards to prove it), so it's a matter of expanding my network and developing alternative methods to achieving the same result, because not all counties are alike.

No, I'm not going to save the world's poor from dying younger, dying harder and dying from diseases their rich neighbors treat with ease. I'm just trying to lower the mortality rates in my rural counties. I cannot do everything, but I can do this one thing, and so I will at least try, instead of sitting around discussing the problem ad nauseum yet offering no solutions.

At least in my counties, I don't have to worry about the #1 killer in our world: the impact of war. Most of these counties don't even have gang problems.

Harmony,

It sounds as if you are doing your part to help where you can and are making a difference. That’s a useful thing to do. We also need the policies of the government in the USA to make a difference in education, energy, and health care. No one can do that alone – not even people of Bill Gates’ stature in terms of wealth distribution. But his foundation and that of many others with real wealth are also doing things to benefit humanity at large.

Clearly the impact of the Iraq war in the deaths of likely several hundred thousand people is beyond any of our capacity to control. Nor can we do much (if we live in the USA) to aid those left with post traumatic stress syndrome who must remain in Iraq or any other country devastated by the ravages of war.

I appreciate your extended response to my comments and question. It is elevating dialog.

JAK

[_JAK]

In order to achieve your laudable goal, capitalism which transfers wealth up needs something which reduces that reality. One way to do that is to increase the tax load on the wealthy. We have had a free market without restriction of wealth transfer. There are still many who propose cutting tax on the wealthy or a flat tax (everyone pays the same percentage). The latter is regressive against the poor and would exacerbate the very problem you wish to solve.

Inordinately taxing those who generate wealth stifles growth and fuels the poverty you think you are combating. I am all for the wealthy paying their fair share but how much is fair? Currently top rates for someone at about $350k a year is at about 42% for federal and state taxes depending on the state you live in. That seem fairly significant. And this does not include FICA and medicare which the wealthy also pay though the 12.45% of FICA stops at $104k of income.

There is another kind of tax which might address your concern. It’s the Value Added Tax. That’s a tax placed on yachts, second, third, and fourth homes, luxury cars, multiple cars beyond three, etc. That is by no means a comprehensive list of things which could reduce the “dying at significantly higher rates.” There are others. Education and skill is critical to accomplish your goal. That is, people must be able to help themselves. What can the wealthy do to enable the poor to help themselves? The cost of poverty is far greater than the cost to educate people to secure their own future with marketable skills. Poverty results in death – death from illegal drugs, death from no medical care, death from ignorance about how people can help themselves.

VAT add costs to all levels of all products and like a sales tax is tremendously regressive unless the VAT applies only to luxury items.

Jason,

In review of this post and in your quoting of it, you see that I referred to a value added tax (VAT) as applied to those things for which the wealthy spend money. Nor did I suggest or imply an “inordinate taxing of those who generate wealth” (a reference of yours related to my comments). The present top rate is lower than “42%” While this link is rather old, it does demonstrate the intent of then candidate Barack Obama.

From what you have stated, I don’t think it’s a disagreement with the options I offered Harmony. There are options. The wealthy have always opposed taxation. They have also favored a system in which total wealth is transferred up to those who are more wealthy. As I observed, our interest charges on virtually everything benefit the more wealthy over the less wealthy. I would further add that those who influence lawmakers are those with wealth to fund costly vacations, parties, and extravaganzas of various types for senators and congressmen in a position to make laws which favor those who fund such spectacles.

I mentioned nothing about general sales tax. It is correct that general sales tax is regressive against the poor. You will note that in your own subsequent quote from me that I was specific about possible options which might be directed toward the lack of equity observed by Harmony.

JAK

[_Jason Bourne]

Yes, I agree. Education is one of the risk factors prevelant within this population, and is one of the unconventional partners I was referring to. We won't be working with community colleges though. Too often, higher education isn't even on the radar for a population that has a dismal high school graduation rate. So we'll be partnering with the K-12 public school system and count ourselves lucky.

You start where you need to start and improve from there.

I have had plenty dealing with the poor.

Did you grow up rural and poor?

My father grew up rural and poor. My father put himself in a position to bring us up in a lower middle class rural setting. By the time he retired I would place him in the upper middle class. My wife's father was rural poor. She grew up in a rural setting though her family I would not call poor they were a struggling farm family.

When we married she had already put herself through college. Me, all I had was high school and a mission. My dad had told me it was mission or college that he could help with but not both. I picked a mission. When at 24 and two kids in our home I realized I needed education I went to college. IT was very hard. We had nothing. we were living on about $9000 a year in the mid 80s. But through hard work from me and my wife I was able to graduate top of my class get a good job in my chosen field and excel. I would think economically I am in at least upper middle class, and own part of business I work in.

Was it easier for me than some. Yes. Was it harder than perhaps for others. Yes.

I did. Spend any time on food stamps, as an adult? I did. These are my people; I understand them and their situation, and since I got out of it, so can they. I'm not trying to improve their economic situation (although that is a nice bonus when it happens). I'm trying to improve their health, so they don't die young and hard.

I am all for this. A applaud you.

Many choose not to try to get out of the situation they are in. You yourself complained on another thread how so many won't take jobs that end up going to illegals. Which is Harmony?

That is true, but just because that is true, do we write them off? Stand back and let them die young and hard, because after all, they choose to? Even if they never really knew differently? I'm sorry, I just can't do that.

Nor did I once suggest that. I am simply pointing out that the comment that the poor stay poor and the rich get rich is often more a choice than it is an unmoving force that cannot be changed. Sometimes it is a result of choosing not to improve.

These are the poorest of the poor. I cannot look away and not see them, Jason. It's simply not in me to do that. I cannot make them change the way they live, but I can bring them together once a month to prepare for the cause, the big event, and while they're there, take their blood pressure and give them some dry beans to cook for a bean soup the next day and a voucher for some soap and shampoo at the local drugstore, courtesy of a partnership between me and the drugstore. I cannot save the world, but I can offer access to services they may not know exist.

I am all for ministering to the poor. Please do not construe my comments otherwise.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason,

In review of this post and in your quoting of it, you see that I referred to a value added tax (VAT) as applied to those things for which the wealthy spend money.

Yes I noted this in my comments.

Nor did I suggest or imply an “inordinate taxing of those who generate wealth” (a reference of yours related to my comments). The present top rate is lower than “42%” While this link is rather old, it does demonstrate the intent of then candidate Barack Obama.

The top federal rate is 35%. I was including state taxes that run 5%-7% in many US States. Also the federal rate can be pushed higher by the Alternative minimum tax which seems to hit people with about $200k-$500k of taxable income.

I assume by providing this link you are in support of a 39% rate on higher earners?

What do you think of the President's recent idea about taking away some of the benefits of charitable contributions for higher earners?

From what you have stated, I don’t think it’s a disagreement with the options I offered Harmony. There are options. The wealthy have always opposed taxation.

Wealthy and poor alike. Nobody likes to pay taxes.

They have also favored a system in which total wealth is transferred up to those who are more wealthy. As I observed, our interest charges on virtually everything benefit the more wealthy over the less wealthy.

Could you expand?

[_truth dancer]

Hey Jason,

Nor did I once suggest that. I am simply pointing out that the comment that the poor stay poor and the rich get rich is often more a choice than it is an unmoving force that cannot be changed. Sometimes it is a result of choosing not to improve.

I'm glad you and your wife were able to improve your lives. Great job.

But, let me tell you, there is no one (let's take out the mentally ill) who prefers being poor to having sufficient for their needs. No one. You make it sound like the poor in our country are choosing to have little food, no health care, no heat, and no decent home.

Let me guess, you had parents who valued education? Or maybe taught you to work hard? Or who knew someone who had "made it"? Or who provided food and shelter for you? I'm guessing you were able to attend elementary school having had a meal in the last twenty four hours? I'm guessing you don't have any significant disabilities? I'm guessing you had a parent who cared about you? I'm guessing you had at least one parent who was not a drug or gambling addict? At least one probably was home at night when you were an infant. I'm guessing you lived in a community where some people had dreams and maybe even some believed they could achieve them? I'm guessing you had people in your family who made changes in their own lives through their own efforts. I'm guessing you had at least a little bit of hope that life could be easier? Maybe you even saw it in your own extended family?

Well, guess what? There are a lot of poor people who have NONE of the above.

I spoke with a seventeen year old girl the other day who is pregnant and trying her best to complete HS. I think she exemplifies what happens in our Country with the poor so let me share a little about her. She has NO family members who have ever graduated from school. Both her parents are alcoholics, one who severely abused her (and lost custody of her). The idea of college has never entered her mind... (until our discussion.. smile). She has no ideas about what it takes to succeed, no teachings of hard work. No parent who cared about her or even demonstrated a minimal amount of concern; no one who could help her see some possibilities for a different kind of future. When we spoke, she hadn't eaten yet that day. She didn't know how to tap into community resources and didn't even know they existed. She didn't know she could have help to go to college or that there were programs to help her complete HS. Her IQ was most likely below average due to her unfortunate early life... and you think she is choosing to be poor? You think she wouldn't love to have a good meal and a nice home?

There are people who can change their circumstances, yes, but I have yet to see even one who didn't have some sort of help along the way, maybe it was a vision of something different, maybe it was a teacher, maybe it was a community member who cared. The point is, because there are people who can "move up" doesn't mean people who don't are CHOOSING to be poor.

OK.. rant over! You need to read Roger's book... seriously, I think you would enjoy it!

~td~

[_Some Schmo]

Is the World Better or Worse?

This is a great discussion question, mostly (from my point of view) because it tells us more about the people answering the question than it does about subject matter of the question. It's a good, "Is the glass half full/half empty" question.

The fact is, the world just is. As harmony pointed out, it still looks the same from space. A person's world view says way more about them than it ever will about the world. If you think it sucks, you'll look for what sucks to support your view. If you think it's better, you'll focus on what's better. There's enough of everything to support whatever perspective you happen to have.

Do I think the world's better or worse? Neither. Only our perceptions change (the world does continue to evolve, but at a rate that, to humanity, seems to make it appear eternal). I think it just keeps doing its thing despite our presence.

And humanity just keeps on keeping on, but humanity is just one small part of the world (and we'd do well to remember that and keep our place in the world in perspective). The world is indifferent to whatever progress humanity makes, and will be around for millions of years after we're gone. If the world had a mind, in a few million years, humanity would be a little rash it once had one summer a long time ago that it had forgotten all about.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hey Jason,


I'm glad you and your wife were able to improve your lives. Great job.

But, let me tell you, there is no one (let's take out the mentally ill) who prefers being poor to having sufficient for their needs. No one. You make it sound like the poor in our country are choosing to have little food, no health care, no heat, and no decent home.

Let me guess, you had parents who valued education? Or maybe taught you to work hard? Or who knew someone who had "made it"? Or who provided food and shelter for you? I'm guessing you were able to attend elementary school having had a meal in the last twenty four hours? I'm guessing you don't have any significant disabilities? I'm guessing you had a parent who cared about you? I'm guessing you had at least one parent who was not a drug or gambling addict? At least one probably was home at night when you were an infant. I'm guessing you lived in a community where some people had dreams and maybe even some believed they could achieve them? I'm guessing you had people in your family who made changes in their own lives through their own efforts. I'm guessing you had at least a little bit of hope that life could be easier? Maybe you even saw it in your own extended family?

Well, guess what? There are a lot of poor people who have NONE of the above.

I spoke with a seventeen year old girl the other day who is pregnant and trying her best to complete HS. I think she exemplifies what happens in our Country with the poor so let me share a little about her. She has NO family members who have ever graduated from school. Both her parents are alcoholics, one who severely abused her (and lost custody of her). The idea of college has never entered her mind... (until our discussion.. smile). She has no ideas about what it takes to succeed, no teachings of hard work. No parent who cared about her or even demonstrated a minimal amount of concern; no one who could help her see some possibilities for a different kind of future. When we spoke, she hadn't eaten yet that day. She didn't know how to tap into community resources and didn't even know they existed. She didn't know she could have help to go to college or that there were programs to help her complete HS. Her IQ was most likely below average due to her unfortunate early life... and you think she is choosing to be poor? You think she wouldn't love to have a good meal and a nice home?

There are people who can change their circumstances, yes, but I have yet to see even one who didn't have some sort of help along the way, maybe it was a vision of something different, maybe it was a teacher, maybe it was a community member who cared. The point is, because there are people who can "move up" doesn't mean people who don't are CHOOSING to be poor.

OK.. rant over! You need to read Roger's book... seriously, I think you would enjoy it!

~td~

Wow

That was a rant. Sorry.. .But it was

For the record let me state:

I have no doubt that my way in life has been much easier due to the fact I was born in a white middle class, albeit lower middle class family.

Growing up in SLC suburbs probably was not too bad.

My life has not been tough though I think I have had to work hard.

I never said it was easy for many many unfortunate individuals.

I never said it was not hard, even a hundred or a thousand times harder than what I had.

Not once.

And yes TD, I have met and there are those who could take opportunities that seem unwilling to do so. Many people. Yes there are people whop are just damn lazy at times and don't want to work hard to get ahead. How many of the poor are like that? I have no idea. Some are. Some are not.


As for your example, yep that is pretty horrible. And I hope someone helps her. Maybe you will or someone else. I think for many help of some sort is there.

Sorry but none of this convinces me that there are not abundant opportunities for most people if they will take them. Hard? Hell yea. Really hard for some and even many. Sure.

But that is life. And nobody in America needs to be bound down by shackles of poverty. Sure many need help. Have I argues they should not be helped? Nope. Not once. Just that those who think that the poor are stuck being poor is in most cases not the case if someone wants to work to better themselves.

[_cinepro]

From a "macro" level, the world is far, far, far better than it has ever been since.

If anyone disagrees, please tell me which hemisphere and century you would rather have lived in?

You only get to pick the hemisphere and era within 100 years. You would then be magically transported there and statistically assigned to a "life", with your gender, nationality, religion, physical condition and social class determined by the demographics of that era. You may end up being a king, but the odds are you'll end up shoveling manure. You will also be subject to infant mortality rates, with a chance that your experiment will end immediately.

There simply hasn't been another time where a baby had better chances of being born into a "successful" life (however you define "succuess"), or even living past the age of 5.

By any measure, we are fortunate to live at the greatest time ever. There are certainly imperfections and room for improvement in today's world, but we've come a long way.

[_The Nehor]

If anyone disagrees, please tell me which hemisphere and century you would rather have lived in?

You only get to pick the hemisphere and era within 100 years. You would then be magically transported there and statistically assigned to a "life", with your gender, nationality, religion, physical condition and social class determined by the demographics of that era. You may end up being a king, but the odds are you'll end up shoveling manure. You will also be subject to infant mortality rates, with a chance that your experiment will end immediately.\

Three Choices:

City of Zion, exact date unknown; Western hemisphere, Nephite Civilization, 33 A.D to 133 A.D.; Millenium, any hemisphere, Any time in that thousand year period.

If I die in childbirth, so be it.