Ethics Scenario

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Liz wrote:What I don't understand, though, TD, is that this type of behavior is massively illegal. Why in the hell hasn't it been shut down? Why hasn't social services become involved? Harmony and I have both asked this question on multiple occasions and have yet to receive an answer.

I applaud what Eric is trying to do. I just don't understand why legal action has not come crashing down on this place. This is child abuse, for f***'s sake!!!!


Just guessing here based on experience. Social services will likely not become involved based on reports of allegations from one person. What will likely happen (I say likely because I'm not certain what the status is of DSS is in Utah with regards to staffing, funding, etc. # of social workers available to do unannounced onsite visits or other factors that affect how the org functions) is that a file will be created regarding the facility in question.

If the facility is licensed as Goodk's post implies, the license # should be easily accessible to the public as well as any reports of abuse/neglect against it, including follow up and responses. GoodK likely has access to the state license# and therefore, access to reports filed against it.

Child abuse, as GoodK has described it, isn't easy to prove, Liz. I remember a while back when he discussed putting children on leashes. That is likely FULLY ALLOWABLE under state statutes for Utah regarding legal restraint of patients, tethering of students and methods of keeping the child "with" the group, without isolating the child and keeping them stationary and unable to run away. So long as the "leash" isn't secured around the child's neck (I believe it was secured around the waist) it's fully permitted.

With regards to the blankets, that GoodK has described. The facility according to state statutes that I looked up is responsible for clothing the students. A blanket can be considered clothing, Liz. Does it seem humiliating to us? Yes. Is it still clothing? Yes, it is. It's warm, it covers your body = clothing.

Remember the colored t-shirts? We can look at that situation one-three ways.
(1) The t-shirts are there to humiliate and ostracize students. (2) The t-shirts are there to ensure the safety of the group as a visual form of color coded organization.
(3) The t-shirts are there to create a sense of belonging for the students which is critical to their ability to progress to a state of well being.

Do you get that?

What I'm getting at here, Liz, is that the state statutes that we all assume are there to ensure the well being of minor children can be "stretched" to include leashes, blankets and the color coded t-shirts.

Do we see the potential for the above being used to degrade students? Yes.

Are they legal? Yes.

What about the students who claim they were physically assaulted by staff? For all we know, the students engaged in a fist fight with each other or a student had an accident that resulted in injury. All the staff has to do is create a report that states that is so. The student will likely never see it, the family will get a copy of an accident/incident report, it will be dropped into a file and unless a death occurs, DSS likely will never see it as anything but business as usual in a facility for incorrigible youth.

Anyone who knows the state statutes and how to act accordingly, also knows how to get around them.

Would I misreport an incident that resulted in injury? No way. Would an unethical child abuser do it? Hell yes.

If I misrepresented any of GoodK's descriptions, I hope he'll correct me asap.

Editing: You need TWO state license #'s. If the facility was licensed as Utah Boys Ranch and Westridge, it has had TWO state license #'s. That's assuming it's a state licensed facility and I would assume that it is, unless the content of it's curriculum has a certain percentage of religious content... in which case, it may not (according to and depending on state rules/regs) need to be licensed.
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

rcrocket wrote:I'm curious as to why you take Goodk's stories at face value? Don't they strike you as absurd?

You're a braver man than I am, rcrocket.

I've been wondering, privately, whether there might possibly be another side to this situation, but I've decided that I simply couldn't endure the barrage of insults and moral condemnation that would come my way if I actually said so.

If the situation is as bad as GoodK says it is, then something plainly needs to be done. But what do I know about the case beyond what I've heard from GoodK? Absolutely nothing.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
rcrocket wrote:I'm curious as to why you take Goodk's stories at face value? Don't they strike you as absurd?

You're a braver man than I am, rcrocket.

I've been wondering, privately, whether there might possibly be another side to this situation, but I've decided that I simply couldn't endure the barrage of insults and moral condemnation that would come my way if I actually said so.

If the situation is as bad as GoodK says it is, then something plainly needs to be done. But what do I know about the case beyond what I've heard from GoodK? Absolutely nothing.


Daniel,

Are you bound by law in your state to report cases of suspected child abuse/neglect as I am? Are you a mandated reporter?
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_truth dancer
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Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Rcrocket,

rcrocket wrote:Liz:

I'm curious as to why you take Goodk's stories at face value? Don't they strike you as absurd?


Have you read the MG website?

That alone tells you something is seriously wrong with this facility!
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Jersey Girl »

truthdancer,

How do you think the facility is licensed? As an educational facility? Mental healthcare facility? What state agency would hold the licensing authority, do you know?

Just curious.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Jersey Girl wrote:Are you bound by law in your state to report cases of suspected child abuse/neglect as I am? Are you a mandated reporter?

I believe I am. But it's not a really live issue for me, since I preside over a congregation of young single adults, with not a single child among them. I've never dealt with a case of child abuse in my calling. (For which I'm grateful.)
_karl61
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Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _karl61 »

this is the law regarding physical abuse in california. Look it up people for Utah or do you want me to:

California WIC 300 (a)

(a) The child has suffered, or there is a substantial risk that
the child will suffer, serious physical harm inflicted
nonaccidentally upon the child by the child's parent or guardian. For
the purposes of this subdivision, a court may find there is a
substantial risk of serious future injury based on the manner in
which a less serious injury was inflicted, a history of repeated
inflictions of injuries on the child or the child's siblings, or a
combination of these and other actions by the parent or guardian
which indicate the child is at risk of serious physical harm. For
purposes of this subdivision, "serious physical harm" does not
include reasonable and age-appropriate spanking to the buttocks where
there is no evidence of serious physical injury.
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Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Yoda »

rcrocket wrote:Liz:

I'm curious as to why you take Goodk's stories at face value? Don't they strike you as absurd?


Yes, Bob. Extremely absurd. That's the point.

Haven't you ever heard the phrase, "truth is stranger than fiction?"

What is his payoff in lying about something like this? The things that he describes that were done to him and others were degrading, bizarre, heart wrenching.

Bob, you're a father. If there is even the slightest possibility that what Eric is saying is true, don't you think that it should be looked into? Does any innocent child deserve to be abused?

Sorry, Bob. I'm a mother first. Once you're a Mom, it's in your blood. There's no turning back. That maternal instinct is just there. And the thought of ANY of Heavenly Father's innocent children being abused makes my blood boil.

Maybe I am naïve. You know what? If I am, I'm OK with that. If there is something that can be done to save even one child from being abused, I support it.
_karl61
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Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _karl61 »

also, they shut down MAC (maclaren childrens center) in Los Angeles because of reported staff abuse and the staff was CPS workers.
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_marg

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _marg »

Daniel Peterson wrote: I've been wondering, privately, whether there might possibly be another side to this situation, but I've decided that I simply couldn't endure the barrage of insults and moral condemnation that would come my way if I actually said so.

If the situation is as bad as GoodK says it is, then something plainly needs to be done. But what do I know about the case beyond what I've heard from GoodK? Absolutely nothing.


Well rather than rely on what Eric says, do a google search. Nothing Eric has mentioned is absurd as far as what behavior modification programs do. I believe they have been existing since the 70's. Many have been forced to shut down but then others reopen.

Review the information on this site. http://www.caica.org/GAO.htm#2009%20press%20release
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