Peterson Pace - "Those who can, do ....."

[_harmony]

How dare you suggest that people who've devoted their lives to trying to educate women in Afghanistan and elsewhere don't care about burned schools or murdered schoolgirls? Really. How dare you? What have you done for the cause of educating women in the Third World? How many visits have you paid to rural villages in the Arab and Islamic world? How much have you been involved with building schools in Africa and the Middle East? And how dare you suggest that I don't care about the plight of Afghan women? What do you really know about me, you appallingly ignorant and complacently judgmental [CHARITY FORBIDS APPROPRIATE EXPRESSION HERE]?

What do you care about Afghan women???? You defend the religion that imprisons them! You don't even acknowledge the part that that religion plays in their plight!

How dare I? How dare you? What have you done to alleviate poverty and suffering anywhere in the world? You sit on your academic throne and pass judgment on people who work with those in poverty every damn day, but at the end of the day, I, at least, have something tangible to show for my efforts, instead of empty words and pontification! Where's your justification for judging me?

Don't tell me I don't do anything to alleviate poverty! You have no idea what I do, who I do it with, what I support, where I send my money!

Yes, I sit in judgment! I work with people in poverty every damn day! They may not be in foreign countries, but their hurts are just as valid.
When I see injustice, I judge those who allow it to happen, no matter where it happens, and I judge those who support those who allow it to happen, no matter who they are! I, at least, do something for and with those in poverty for a minimum of 8 hours every damn day!

Do you? Hell, how could you? You're a teacher! You don't dirty your hands by working anywhere near those in poverty every damn day! How does teaching Arabic alleviate the suffering of anyone in poverty anywhere in the world, every damn day?

Don't rant at me about social justice, Daniel. It's my bread and butter. Yours is academia... nice work, wear a tie to the office, give a presentation here and there, have lunch with your powerful friends, get on a plane and visit a cathedral now and then. Your work doesn't alleviate suffering for anyone, anywhere, anytime. It's not in your scope of work, not your job. How many lives did your work save today? How much suffering were you able to alleviate today? It is in my scope of work; it's how I spend my volunteer time too, it's freakin' what I do, who I am. Every day... every frickin' damn day. (Sundays off to do laundry, with a few exceptions).

What have you and your exalted, highly educated, highly placed friends done about burned out schools, murdered teachers and students, about an 87% illiteracy rate among women? How many burned schools did you visit, today? How much suffering did you alleviate, today? You asked me, implying that I did nothing about social injustice... so now, I ask you: What have you personally done... today?

[_Daniel Peterson]

What do you care about Afghan women????

You have absolutely no basis for pretending to know that you care about them more than I do.

You defend the religion that imprisons them!

I refute your cartoonish and ignorant attempt to blame their situation simplistically on Islam.

I've supplied you with both relevant facts and logical analysis. You've ignored both, but have simply grown more shrill and hysterical in your denunciations of me on the basis of your presumed greater righteousness and concern.

You blame female illiteracy in Aghanistan on Islam in an absolutely simple-minded way, and refuse to acknowledge the directly salient fact that women's literacy in many other equally Muslim countries is many times higher.

You don't even acknowledge the part that that religion plays in their plight!

That's a flat falsehood. I've acknowledged the role that Islam plays in their plight several times on this very thread.

How dare I? How dare you? What have you done to alleviate poverty and suffering anywhere in the world?

I've given considerable sums of money, relative to my income, to various charities that do work in the Third World. I've helped to raise substantial amounts for humanitarian relief, and have myself given to it. I'm chairman of the board of a non-profit operation that works on nutrition in the Third World. I've participated in projects to build schools in the Middle East and in Central America, and to provide better housing in Central America. I've led efforts to prepare relief goods for shipment to the Third World. And so on and so forth. This is a big part of my life, though one that I prefer not to talk about.

You sit on your academic throne and pass judgment on people who work with those in poverty every damn day

Where have I done this even one day?

Reference please!

but at the end of the day, I, at least, have something tangible to show for my efforts, instead of empty words and pontification! Where's your justification for judging me?

Where have I judged you on this matter? I don't know what you do, just as you don't know -- though now you have a slightly better idea -- what I do.

Where have I ever suggested, for example, that you've done nothing tangible for the poor, nothing but empty words and pontification? Yet that's what you've said about me.

Where have I said that your work doesn't alleviate suffering for anyone, anywhere, anytime? But you've said that about mine.

Where have I declared that you refuse to recognize the plight of the poor and disadvantaged? Yet you've repeatedly asserted that about me.

Where have I said that you wash your hands of the sufferings of poor people? Yet you've said precisely that about me.

Where have I suggested that you consider it a "win-win" when you can ignore pain and poverty and oppression? Yet you've asserted that about me.

Don't tell me I don't do anything to alleviate poverty!

I haven't told you that.

You have no idea what I do, who I do it with, what I support, where I send my money!

That's correct. And that's why I've never expressed any opinion on it.

Yet you, who have no idea what I do, with whom I do it, what I support, and where I send my money, have expressed your very strong and wholly ignorant opinion on it.

Yes, I sit in judgment!

Yes, indeed. Whatever else you may do, you certainly sit in judgment.

I work with people in poverty every damn day! They may not be in foreign countries, but their hurts are just as valid.

Which is absolutely irrelevant to the simple point I've defended here from the beginning: Islam is a factor in female illiteracy in Afghanistan, but it isn't the decisive factor.

That simple point -- even if you mistakenly disagree with it -- in no way justifies your over-the-top assault on me as a self-satisfied defender of oppression who doesn't care about poverty and suffering. You had no call to insult me in that manner. None whatsoever. You've behaved shamefully.

When I see injustice, I judge those who allow it to happen, no matter where it happens, and I judge those who support those who allow it to happen, no matter who they are!

You have absolutely no basis for your blanket condemnation of everybody who's over in Afghanistan, in rural Egypt and Ethiopia, in provincial Turkey, and the like, trying to improve education, provide food, and strengthen local economies. Many, I readily grant, are corrupt. But many are not. I know many who are not, who wear out their lives trying to make a difference while you, posting anonymously on a message board, sit in withering judgment on them.

I, at least, do something for and with those in poverty for a minimum of 8 hours every damn day!

I don't work professionally in charity. I readily concede that. I do it as a volunteer.

You're a teacher! You don't dirty your hands by working anywhere near those in poverty every damn day!

I've lived in areas poorer than anything I've ever seen in the United States, among people poorer than anybody you're likely to meet in America. I'll be among them again later this month.

How does teaching Arabic alleviate the suffering of anyone in poverty anywhere in the world, every damn day?

I don't apologize for what I do for a living. I don't even apologize for it in terms of social goods. I teach Americans to understand a very foreign culture and a very foreign language, in hopes that the chasm separating the Islamic world and the West can be bridged to at least some degree. If you don't think that worthwhile, I do, and I'm not ashamed of it. My students have gone on to work in international aid, diplomacy, and many such fields, and I'm proud of them. They're making a difference.

Don't rant at me about social justice, Daniel.

I haven't.

You're hysterical and irrational.

academia... nice work, wear a tie to the office, give a presentation here and there, have lunch with your powerful friends, get on a plane and visit a cathedral now and then. Your work doesn't alleviate suffering for anyone, anywhere, anytime. It's not in your scope of work, not your job.

Has grossly insulting me on a message board helped anybody, anywhere?

How many lives did your work save today? How much suffering were you able to alleviate today?[ . . . How many burned schools did you visit, today? How much suffering did you alleviate, today?

How many lives did your work save today? Give me the number. How much suffering were you able to alleviate, today? How many burned out schools did you visit today?

What have you and your exalted, highly educated, highly placed friends done about burned out schools, murdered teachers and students, about an 87% illiteracy rate among women? You asked me, implying that I did nothing about social injustice... so now, I ask you: What have you personally done... today?

What have you done, besides irrelevantly insulting me, about murdered teachers and students, about an 87% illiteracy rate among Afghan women?

What have you personally done, today?

My point on this thread has been and remains a simple one, which all your posturing and all your insults have failed even to address: The dominance of Islam in Tajikistan and Qatar and Bahrein and Egypt and Turkey and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates and Syria and many other Islamic countries is accompanied by literacy rates far, far higher than those in Afghanistan, which means that the dominance of Islam in Afghanistan is very unlikely to be, simply, the principal (let alone sole) cause of low literacy rates in Afghanistan.

Wrathfully depicting me as an ivory tower academic who doesn't care about the suffering of the poor and the oppression of women may be gratifying, and there are, no doubt, several here who are applauding your performance. But it has nothing whatever to do with my point, and certainly doesn't refute it.

[_Ray A]

All I'd like to say, is that I'm glad I know, and have met Dan Peterson. That alone has been worth nine years on Internet forums.

I'd like to meet harmony too. I'm sure she'd be most engaging conversation.

I just wish the bitterness between you two would stop. You are both, obviously, very conscientious and devoted people, in your own right, in your own ways, and according to your abilities.

[_why me]

The communists began to educate women and also bring universal health care to the population. It was a very progressive government but like most novices they went too fast, too quick and alienated the conservative element in society. Not to mention they put many people in jail.

But their goals were noble. However, the US government not wanting another communist government to deal with began to arm the opposition. This opposition were anticommunist and reactionary and conservative. The communist government fell in 1994 and the rest is history. In foreign policy terms it is called 'blowback' as the people who the USA supported turned against the USA.

One cannot blame Islam per se but what can blame ideology behind the Islamic movements. The soviet union was a progressive state that attempted to educate muslim women from the very beginning. Now, conservative elements are in place and women are beginning to become illiterate once more in certain postSoviet societies.

Is it me, or does this post seem thoroughly retarded? I think so. I guess we should forget that the "progressive" Soviet Union would murder entire towns? I guess we should forget the "progressive" Soviet Union starved millions of its own citizens? Didn't have a free press? Jailed political dissidents?

How very progressive. Jesus.

Of course you overlooked American involvement in pushing back the trend in educating women in Afghanistan. The afghan govenment under the communists at first made mistakes. But educating women and public health care was not one of those mistakes.

In terms of the soviet unioin, there are many people today that miss the soviet union because their situations are worse now than before. And in terms of prisons, I do believe that it is the united states that has the highest number people in prison per capita.

[_why me]

What do you care about Afghan women???? You defend the religion that imprisons them! You don't even acknowledge the part that that religion plays in their plight!

Don't tell me I don't do anything to alleviate poverty! You have no idea what I do, who I do it with, what I support, where I send my money!

Yes, I sit in judgment! I work with people in poverty every damn day! They may not be in foreign countries, but their hurts are just as valid.
When I see injustice, I judge those who allow it to happen, no matter where it happens, and I judge those who support those who allow it to happen, no matter who they are! I, at least, do something for and with those in poverty for a minimum of 8 hours every damn day!

Do you? Hell, how could you? You're a teacher! You don't dirty your hands by working anywhere near those in poverty every damn day! How does teaching Arabic alleviate the suffering of anyone in poverty anywhere in the world, every damn day?

Don't rant at me about social justice, Daniel. It's my bread and butter.

Maybe should send your money to this organization:

http://www.rawa.org/rawa.html

http://www.rawa.org/events/mar8-08.htm

As I have said, it is not about Islam...it is about ideolgoy.

[_ludwigm]

Yeah. At least the trains ran on time.

I don't remember, was this said about the system of Hitler or Mussolini.
Or about both.

In the socialism, I testify that the trains didn't run on time.

You may not believe it, but there were good things in Soviet Union, and in any of their servant country.
We didn't choose that status. It was forced, we should have lived in it. We should have shown permanent joy to survive.
We really rejoiced over that few good thing. For example, the education and its environment was good.

The only problem of good things were that on the other side there were fifty times more thing .. ehm .. not too good.
There is a hungarian saying: "Even a blind hen can find a grain." And our leaders was blind, in this sense.

The wildest anti-mormons can admit that there are good things in Mormonism, it makes no sense to deny it. (There may be in scientology, even I know none.)

But, You know, the risks and side effects. (21000 hits on Google ...)

.

.

.
##############

[_harmony]

What do you care about Afghan women????

You have absolutely no basis for pretending to know that you care about them more than I do.

I didn't see you bringing up their plight earlier in this thread, Daniel. I had to do it myself. If you cared more or even as much about their plight, then why was I the one who mentioned them first? Oh yeah... because you defend the powerful Islamic government that allows the local Islamic conservatives to burn schools and murder school girls. I'm not the one who defends that, Daniel.

You've shown evidence that you know some Afghan women in the 13% that is educated. The only thing you have shown about the other 87% is that well... you don't know them, but you're certain their religion isn't at the root of their appalling literacy problem.

You defend the religion that imprisons them!

I refute your cartoonish and ignorant attempt to blame their situation simplistically on Islam.

I put them where they really are: at the apex of a triangle of religion, poverty, and geography. You, on the other hand, want to relegate it to an afterthought.

I've supplied you with both relevant facts and logical analysis. You've ignored both, but have simply grown more shrill and hysterical in your denunciations of me on the basis of your presumed greater righteousness and concern.

You blame female illiteracy in Aghanistan on Islam in an absolutely simple-minded way, and refuse to acknowledge the directly salient fact that women's literacy in many other equally Muslim countries is many times higher.

You've shown that you systematically defend Islam in Afghanistan, where it's logical that it is a huge factor in the plight of Afghan women. I refuse to apologize for my passion.

You don't even acknowledge the part that that religion plays in their plight!

That's a flat falsehood. I've acknowledged the role that Islam plays in their plight several times on this very thread.

You've defended them, six ways to Sunday!

How dare I? How dare you? What have you done to alleviate poverty and suffering anywhere in the world?

I've given considerable sums of money, relative to my income, to various charities that do work in the Third World. I've helped to raise substantial amounts for humanitarian relief, and have myself given to it. I'm chairman of the board of a non-profit operation that works on nutrition in the Third World. I've participated in projects to build schools in the Middle East and in Central America, and to provide better housing in Central America. I've led efforts to prepare relief goods for shipment to the Third World. And so on and so forth. This is a big part of my life, though one that I prefer not to talk about.

Are you ashamed of this good work? We hear enough about everything else you do, why does it require me prodding you to get you to admit this?

You sit on your academic throne and pass judgment on people who work with those in poverty every damn day

Where have I done this even one day?

Reference please!

Every time you judge me on this issue, Daniel. Every time you judge me.

Where have I judged you on this matter? I don't know what you do, just as you don't know -- though now you have a slightly better idea -- what I do.

Where have I ever suggested, for example, that you've done nothing tangible for the poor, nothing but empty words and pontification? Yet that's what you've said about me.

Where have I said that your work doesn't alleviate suffering for anyone, anywhere, anytime? But you've said that about mine.

Where have I declared that you refuse to recognize the plight of the poor and disadvantaged? Yet you've repeatedly asserted that about me.

Where have I said that you wash your hands of the sufferings of poor people? Yet you've said precisely that about me.

Where have I suggested that you consider it a "win-win" when you can ignore pain and poverty and oppression? Yet you've asserted that about me.

Here:

How dare you suggest that people who've devoted their lives to trying to educate women in Afghanistan and elsewhere don't care about burned schools or murdered schoolgirls? Really. How dare you? What have you done for the cause of educating women in the Third World? How many visits have you paid to rural villages in the Arab and Islamic world? How much have you been involved with building schools in Africa and the Middle East? And how dare you suggest that I don't care about the plight of Afghan women? What do you really know about me, you appallingly ignorant and complacently judgmental [CHARITY FORBIDS APPROPRIATE EXPRESSION HERE]?

Just who were you referring to with all those yous, if you weren't referring to me? This was an angry footstomping rant of epic proportions (not that you'll ever admit it).

Don't tell me I don't do anything to alleviate poverty!

I haven't told you that.

See above quote.

You have no idea what I do, who I do it with, what I support, where I send my money!

That's correct. And that's why I've never expressed any opinion on it.

See above quote.

Yet you, who have no idea what I do, with whom I do it, what I support, and where I send my money, have expressed your very strong and wholly ignorant opinion on it.

Turn about is fair play, Daniel. I said nothing about you, except that you defended Islam against some pretty formidable information, until you attacked me.

Yes, I sit in judgment!

Yes, indeed. Whatever else you may do, you certainly sit in judgment.

As do you.

I work with people in poverty every damn day! They may not be in foreign countries, but their hurts are just as valid.

Which is absolutely irrelevant to the simple point I've defended here from the beginning: Islam is a factor in female illiteracy in Afghanistan, but it isn't the decisive factor.

Irrelevant to your simple point (wrong though the point may be) it may be, but salient to your attack on me in the above quoted paragraph.

That simple point -- even if you mistakenly disagree with it -- in no way justifies your over-the-top assault on me as a self-satisfied defender of oppression who doesn't care about poverty and suffering. You had no call to insult me in that manner. None whatsoever. You've behaved shamefully.

You brought it on yourself, with your attack on me, Daniel. Yours is the shameful behavior.

When I see injustice, I judge those who allow it to happen, no matter where it happens, and I judge those who support those who allow it to happen, no matter who they are!

You have absolutely no basis for your blanket condemnation of everybody who's over in Afghanistan, in rural Egypt and Ethiopia, in provincial Turkey, and the like, trying to improve education, provide food, and strengthen local economies. Many, I readily grant, are corrupt. But many are not. I know many who are not, who wear out their lives trying to make a difference while you, posting anonymously on a message board, sit in withering judgment on them.

My comments obviously weren't about your friends, since they are not numbered among those who "allow it to happen" and if what you say is correct, they don't support those who "allow it to happen"... so I wasn't judging them You, on the other hand? Interesting how you missed that salient phrase, in your blanket condemnation and withering judgment of me.

I, at least, do something for and with those in poverty for a minimum of 8 hours every damn day!

I don't work professionally in charity. I readily concede that. I do it as a volunteer.

No, you work professionally in a different career altogether, and while on your academic throne, you condemn someone who works in that population. Good job, Daniel.

You're a teacher! You don't dirty your hands by working anywhere near those in poverty every damn day!

I've lived in areas poorer than anything I've ever seen in the United States, among people poorer than anybody you're likely to meet in America. I'll be among them again later this month.

Are we going to play One Up?

Visit a reservation in Montana sometime.

How does teaching Arabic alleviate the suffering of anyone in poverty anywhere in the world, every damn day?

I don't apologize for what I do for a living. I don't even apologize for it in terms of social goods. I teach Americans to understand a very foreign culture and a very foreign language, in hopes that the chasm separating the Islamic world and the West can be bridged to at least some degree. If you don't think that worthwhile, I do, and I'm not ashamed of it. My students have gone on to work in international aid, diplomacy, and many such fields, and I'm proud of them. They're making a difference.

Meanwhile, I'm in the trenches every day, trying to get people, some like you, although in different fields at different schools, to understand why the population I work with is important. They're just the poor, just the poverty-stricken, and at least in my agency, there is no one else who stands up for them.

Don't rant at me about social justice, Daniel.

I haven't.

See above quoted paragraph. If that wasn't a rant, I've never seen one.

You're hysterical and irrational.

Not hardly, Daniel. Angry, yes. Hysterical, no. And nowhere near irrational. Were I irrational, I'd say things like "you appallingly ignorant and complacently judgmental [CHARITY FORBIDS APPROPRIATE EXPRESSION HERE]". I believe it was you who said that, to me. But I didn't return the favor and call you similiar names. I just showed you where you were wrong.

academia... nice work, wear a tie to the office, give a presentation here and there, have lunch with your powerful friends, get on a plane and visit a cathedral now and then. Your work doesn't alleviate suffering for anyone, anywhere, anytime. It's not in your scope of work, not your job.

Has grossly insulting me on a message board helped anybody, anywhere?

Are you saying tha sentence is grossly insulting to you? It's the truth, it's what you've repeatedly written about here, telling us all how important you and your friends are. So how can that be grossly insulting?

How many lives did your work save today? How much suffering were you able to alleviate today?[ . . . How many burned schools did you visit, today? How much suffering did you alleviate, today?

How many lives did your work save today?

Hundreds. Thousands. Millions. And the same tomorrow.

How much suffering were you able to alleviate, today?

A lot. Don't forget what I do, who I do it with, and where I do it, Daniel.

How many burned out schools did you visit today?

No schools today. That was Tuesday.

What have you and your exalted, highly educated, highly placed friends done about burned out schools, murdered teachers and students, about an 87% illiteracy rate among women? You asked me, implying that I did nothing about social injustice... so now, I ask you: What have you personally done... today?

What have you done, besides irrelevantly insulting me, about murdered teachers and students, about an 87% illiteracy rate among Afghan women?

What have you personally done, today?

You didn't answer my question, Daniel. Am I to assume you did nothing today to alleviate suffering anywhere on the globe?

My point on this thread has been and remains a simple one, which all your posturing and all your insults have failed even to address: The dominance of Islam in Tajikistan and Qatar and Bahrein and Egypt and Turkey and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates and Syria and many other Islamic countries is accompanied by literacy rates far, far higher than those in Afghanistan, which means that the dominance of Islam in Afghanistan is very unlikely to be, simply, the principal (let alone sole) cause of low literacy rates in Afghanistan.

You refuse to acknowledge Islam's responsibility in the plight of women in Afghanistan, refusing to see that their influence is the foundation of the problem, Daniel. Whatever good they do elsewhere pales in comparison to the damage they do in Afghanistan.

Wrathfully depicting me as an ivory tower academic who doesn't care about the suffering of the poor and the oppression of women may be gratifying, and there are, no doubt, several here who are applauding your performance. But it has nothing whatever to do with my point, and certainly doesn't refute it.

Should I quote you again, Daniel? You starting this pissing match with this: "quote="Daniel Peterson"--How dare you suggest that people who've devoted their lives to trying to educate women in Afghanistan and elsewhere don't care about burned schools or murdered schoolgirls? Really. How dare you? What have you done for the cause of educating women in the Third World? How many visits have you paid to rural villages in the Arab and Islamic world? How much have you been involved with building schools in Africa and the Middle East? And how dare you suggest that I don't care about the plight of Afghan women? What do you really know about me, you appallingly ignorant and complacently judgmental [CHARITY FORBIDS APPROPRIATE EXPRESSION HERE]?"

At least I didn't call you appallingly ignorant.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I didn't see you bringing up their plight earlier in this thread, Daniel. I had to do it myself.

I didn't bring it up because emoting about the plight of Afghan women on a message board doesn't do them any good and isn't relevant to the questions to which I was responding.

Shades asserted that Islam punishes the education of women. That isn't true. I've demonstrated in multiple ways that it isn't true. Is the female literacy rate in Afghanistan appallingly low? Yes! Yes, it is! But literacy rates in many other Islamic countries are several times higher. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Turkey, Iran, Malaysia, Egypt, the Palestinian Authority, Syria -- all of these are overwhelmingly Islamic, and all of them educate women. You can call me all the names you want, and pronounce me indifferent to oppression and suffering to your heart's content, but it won't alter the fact that Islam, as such, neither punishes the education of women nor even opposes such education.

I've cited statistics for you. I've provided logical analogues for you. I've supplied actual quotations from the sayings of Muhammad for you. I've offered examples of educated Muslim women for you. You've ignored them all, but have grown increasingly shrill in denouncing me, with perfect irrelevance and complete injustice, as somebody who doesn't care that Afghan schools have been burnt and that Afghan women are oppressed,

you defend the powerful Islamic government that allows the local Islamic conservatives to burn schools and murder school girls.

The Afghan government is far from "powerful," Harmony. That's partly my point. It is extraordinarily poor. It scarcely exists in large sections of the country. It's battling a powerful insurgency in an extremely difficult terrain, lacking roads and infrastructure, trying to cope with heavily-armed opium-rich warlords, constantly facing violent death.

I have no doubt that Hamid Karzai would like to do good things for his country, for the education of women as for other things. But he's extremely constrained. I have no doubt that others working in Afghanistan, in the government and elsewhere, -- Muslims, every one of them -- would like to improve conditions in their country. I've met a few of them. They're working hard, but conditions are terribly, terribly difficult there. And not a few of them have died for their work. It isn't fair to speak of them as if they're all indifferent to suffering and complacent about the Afghan status quo. It's not fair at all. And it's certainly inappropriate to do it from the safe comfort of the United States, anonymously on a message board.

I'm not the one who defends that, Daniel.

I defend innocent people.

[You've shown evidence that you know some Afghan women in the 13% that is educated. The only thing you have shown about the other 87% is that well... you don't know them, but you're certain their religion isn't at the root of their appalling literacy problem.

I've supplied reasons for my view. You've dealt with not a single one of my reasons. You've simply called me names and insulted me.

How many illiterate Afghan women do you know? You sneer that I don't get my hands dirty helping the poor. That's not altogether true, but, in any event, I wonder just how dirty your hands get on a typical day, helping the poor. As I recall, you're a fund raiser. I won't take a leaf from your book (let alone Scratch's), and denounce fund raising as either a useless profession or an evil one -- I think fund raising for good causes is a necessary and positive thing -- but I rather doubt that your hands really get very dirty in the course of your normal, daily work. And I'm not sure that your work as a fund raiser in the comfort of the United States situates you ideally to condemn the impoverished and endangered Afghan ministry of education, let alone to sneer at rural teachers in Afghan government schools who put their lives on the line every day for maybe $20 a month.

I put them where they really are: at the apex of a triangle of religion, poverty, and geography. You, on the other hand, want to relegate it to an afterthought.

I've cited religion, poverty, and geography multiple times as factors in Afghanistan. On this thread. Anybody who wants to read through the posts here will see that.

You pay no real attention to what I say except to mine it for counterattacks. You don't deal with my arguments. You prefer to insult me and brand me as immoral.

I refuse to apologize for my passion.

When your "passion" causes you to be grossly unjust and unfair (ironically doing no good at all for those for whom you claim to be passionate), it's a shameful thing.

Are you ashamed of this good work?

No. But I don't sound a trumpet before me when I give alms. (That's in the New Testament, Harmony.)

I said nothing about you, except that you defended Islam against some pretty formidable information, until you attacked me.

Anybody who wants to read through this thread will see that that isn't true. You began attacking me as indifferent to the suffering of Afghan women, and as defending their oppressors, almost immediately upon your surfacing in the discussion.

The topic here was never my personal righteousness, nor anybody else's on the thread, until you sought to make it so.

You brought it on yourself, with your attack on me, Daniel. Yours is the shameful behavior.

Take some deep breaths, Harmony, and re-read the thread.

No, you work professionally in a different career altogether, and while on your academic throne, you condemn someone who works in that population. Good job, Daniel.

I haven't done that, Harmony. Re-read the thread.

And if you're really working in Afghanistan, I commend you for your efforts.

Visit a reservation in Montana sometime.

What on earth would that have to do with the question of whether Islam is the sole or principal factor in female illiteracy in Afghanistan?

You keep venturing down stray paths. Poverty among Montana Indians is an important topic. No doubt about that. But it's no more relevant to the matter Shades raised than it would be to a discussion of the causes for World War II or the advisability of raising interest rates at the Fed.

How many lives did your work save today? How much suffering were you able to alleviate today?[ . . . How many burned schools did you visit, today? How much suffering did you alleviate, today?
How many lives did your work save today?

Hundreds. Thousands. Millions. And the same tomorrow.

You visited hundreds, thousands, even millions of burned out schools yesterday?

You saved millions of lives yesterday?

Well, I'll admit that I can't compete with that. I don't know anybody on the planet who can. No wonder you sit in godlike judgment on the puny mortals who try, in their vastly inferior way, to improve life for the poor of Afghanistan.

How many burned out schools did you visit today?

No schools today. That was Tuesday.

You visited burned out schools on Tuesday?

Do you work out of Herat, or Kandahar, or out of Kabul itself? Aren't you nervous?

Am I to assume you did nothing today to alleviate suffering anywhere on the globe?

No, you're not.

But what has this to do with my denial of Shades's notion that Islam punishes the education of women?

My point on this thread has been and remains a simple one, which all your posturing and all your insults have failed even to address: The dominance of Islam in Tajikistan and Qatar and Bahrein and Egypt and Turkey and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates and Syria and many other Islamic countries is accompanied by literacy rates far, far higher than those in Afghanistan, which means that the dominance of Islam in Afghanistan is very unlikely to be, simply, the principal (let alone sole) cause of low literacy rates in Afghanistan.

You refuse to acknowledge Islam's responsibility in the plight of women in Afghanistan, refusing to see that their influence is the foundation of the problem, Daniel. Whatever good they do elsewhere pales in comparison to the damage they do in Afghanistan.

On this very thread, as anybody can easily see who cares to look, I've repeatedly and explicitly acknowledged the role that a certain form of Islam plays among important elements in Afghanistan, in conjunction with poverty and geography, in oppressing women and keeping them illiterate.

Wrathfully depicting me as an ivory tower academic who doesn't care about the suffering of the poor and the oppression of women may be gratifying, and there are, no doubt, several here who are applauding your performance. But it has nothing whatever to do with my point, and certainly doesn't refute it.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Let's leave aside questions about whether or not I gnaw on the bones of poor people and/or rejoice in the oppression of Third World women, or whether, by choosing a career outside of professional philanthropy, I've signaled my complete indifference to suffering. In fact, let's just stipulate that I'm a terrible person, and have done with it.

Is there any serious poster here -- I'm talking about the ones who like to discuss ideas, not those who prefer drive-by insults -- who can't understand the point I've tried to make on this thread about Islam and the education of women? Have I been too opaque? Have the reasons I've supplied for my viewpoint been too obscure?

I genuinely can't figure out why my point might be difficult to grasp, or, really, even very controversial.

[_silentkid]

I usually hate you so much that I never agree with anything you say , but in this instance you've provided sound reasoning to support your position. I agree with you.