Ethics Scenario

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_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Some Schmo's point was too poignant to pass up without further commentary. rcrocket wrote:

I'm curious as to why you take Goodk's stories at face value? Don't they strike you as absurd?

Let's expand on that:

  • Person A claims that employees at a residential youth "treatment" facility, which has no governmental oversight whatsoever, physically and verbally abuse the youth under their care.
  • Person B claims that an angel visited him with a drawn sword and declared that he would kill him unless he started sleeping with teenage girls and other men's wives.

Now, out of those two options, which one does rcrocket take at face value, and which one is he skeptical of?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_rcrocket

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _rcrocket »

liz3564 wrote:
rcrocket wrote:Liz:

I'm curious as to why you take Goodk's stories at face value? Don't they strike you as absurd?


Yes, Bob. Extremely absurd. That's the point.

Haven't you ever heard the phrase, "truth is stranger than fiction?"

What is his payoff in lying about something like this? The things that he describes that were done to him and others were degrading, bizarre, heart wrenching.

Bob, you're a father. If there is even the slightest possibility that what Eric is saying is true, don't you think that it should be looked into? Does any innocent child deserve to be abused?

Sorry, Bob. I'm a mother first. Once you're a Mom, it's in your blood. There's no turning back. That maternal instinct is just there. And the thought of ANY of Heavenly Father's innocent children being abused makes my blood boil.

Maybe I am naïve. You know what? If I am, I'm OK with that. If there is something that can be done to save even one child from being abused, I support it.


I am not defending the Boy's Ranch. Several times parents have come to me and have asked whether they ought to send their children to boot camp, and that one specifically. I know two people who have gone there, Eric and a member of my ward (whose parents sent him without talking to me). Based upon what I know from these two cases, I have advised parents against sending their children off like that and have advised them to gut it out. So far, they have although it has been terrible for the families.

On the other hand, it strikes me as absurd that Eric was sent there just because he wouldn't attend seminary. (Part of his story is a slam against people I know well.) It also strikes me as absurd that there has been no investigation of his claims.

As far as the other posters who gnash their teeth against me with other matters, including instances of other abuse cases completely unrelated to Utah Boy's Ranch and even citation to stories of angels and angelic visits, all I can say is that one does not equal the other. I suppose that in response to my question about the absurdity of the willingness to take his statements at face value with no questions asked, one could have easily have said to me -- "yeah, but what about Hitler?"
_rcrocket

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _rcrocket »

Dr. Shades wrote:
  • Person A claims that employees at a residential youth "treatment" facility, which has no governmental oversight whatsoever, physically and verbally abuse the youth under their care.
  • Person B claims that an angel visited him with a drawn sword and declared that he would kill him unless he started sleeping with teenage girls and other men's wives.

Now, out of those two options, which one does rcrocket take at face value, and which one is he skeptical of?


Really, are you saying that because I have religious faith I am disentitled to doubt elements of Eric's story?

I doubt almost anything you have to say, but that's based upon the substance of your posts for an infamous reason you well know. It has nothing to do with your religious faith or lack thereof.
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Dr. Shades »

rcrocket wrote:Really, are you saying that because I have religious faith I am disentitled to doubt elements of Eric's story?

No, I am saying that because you believe that a homicidal sword-wielding angel ordered someone to sleep with teenagers and married women or be killed disentitles you to much other than to "take Eric's story at face value," your original words.

I doubt almost anything you have to say, but that's based upon the substance of your posts for an infamous reason you well know.

What, because I gave someone advice on how to defend his wallet from a thieving pickpocketer? Wow, what a sinner I must be.

It has nothing to do with your religious faith or lack thereof.

Thank you, but I don't care either way.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Some Schmo »

rcrocket wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:
  • Person A claims that employees at a residential youth "treatment" facility, which has no governmental oversight whatsoever, physically and verbally abuse the youth under their care.
  • Person B claims that an angel visited him with a drawn sword and declared that he would kill him unless he started sleeping with teenage girls and other men's wives.

Now, out of those two options, which one does rcrocket take at face value, and which one is he skeptical of?


Really, are you saying that because I have religious faith I am disentitled to doubt elements of Eric's story?

I doubt almost anything you have to say, but that's based upon the substance of your posts for an infamous reason you well know. It has nothing to do with your religious faith or lack thereof.

Before responding, I just have to say, "gnash their teeth?" LMAO

Obviously you're entitled to doubt elements of Eric's story, but one has to wonder why you don't use the same critical analysis on an obvious fraud.

What you're essentially saying above is that you're incredulous about what Shades writes based on the substance of his posts, but the substance of Joe Smiths words and actions deem him completely trustworthy and believable. It must be fun to live in a world of selective criticism.

Again, it's worth repeating: LMAO
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

rcrocket wrote:On the other hand, it strikes me as absurd that Eric was sent there just because he wouldn't attend seminary. (Part of his story is a slam against people I know well.) It also strikes me as absurd that there has been no investigation of his claims.

There's only one side to this story, counselor. Such stories are rare, I grant, but, trust me, this is a one-sided story.

-dcp
(who knows Eric's stepfather)
_rcrocket

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _rcrocket »

Dr. Shades wrote:What, because I gave someone advice on how to defend his wallet from a thieving pickpocketer? Wow, what a sinner I must be.


I am not accusing you of being a sinner. Just poor character.
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _Dr. Shades »

So now it's poor character to advise someone on how to defend his wallet against a thieving pickpocketer?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _truth dancer »

As I wrote earlier, I think it is important to note that the MG does not accept children who have a history of violence, serious emotional or behavioral issues, or severe mental health issues. The children housed at the MG are those with problems such as low self-esteem, low motivation, identity issues, bereavement, family conflict, depression, etc.

Now the question anyone should ask themselves, is it necessary to put children with these sorts of issues in a residential facility for years on end?

Which brings me to an issue that is particularly problematic to me.

Virtually all research supports the fact that children in need of services, except in the most extreme situations do best in their family with support. Typically every possible solution is exhausted prior to a child being placed in a residential facility... it is the last resort (I understand parents choose to place their children there but go with me here for a minute). Now, forget about the fact that in my opinion, there is never a reason to place children with "soft to moderate" behavior issues in a residential facility such as the MG, we have to wonder why children are there for years and years and years.

When a child in need of services is placed in a residential facility they enter with the goal of being returned to their home (family member or permanent foster care if their home is not appropriate) usually within six months or so. They enter with the explicit purpose of learing new skills, getting the needed help and moving out. It is never a place considered appropriate for a child to live long term.

If a child is not dramatically improving within six months then it becomes clear the facility is not the proper placement for the particular child.

Yet in the case of the MG, we have children living there for years and years.. how can this be? Any expert in the world would immediately know this was completely inappropriate.

It is like a doctor prescribing a particular medication with some horrible side effects, realizing the meds are not working but insisting the patient continue to take the meds for years. It is unconscionable.

I suppose the MG gets away with it because they are licensed for foster care.

:twisted:

Another thing, the MG website does correctly state that the family must be involved to help children with behavioral problems, yet it is also clear that children are not allowed to contact their parents for some time and contact is very limited most likely monitored. In addition, it seems that many children placed in the MG are not from the area so I wonder how the family can in any way be involved in treatment or family therapy. (Eric, did your step father participate in family therapy with the MG)?

The whole thing reeks of problems.
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Re: Ethics Scenario

Post by _asbestosman »

Dr. Shades wrote:So now it's poor character to advise someone on how to defend his wallet against a thieving pickpocketer?

It is if your advice is illegal, or at least involves hiding relevant information from legal authorities (not saying your advice was or wasn't since I'm a bit fuzzy on details).
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
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