Spong laments the passing of Roman Catholicism

[_huckelberry]

I have overposted on my disagreement with Spong. Rogers post suggests that maybe a new subject,namely sin could be persued in this thread. I think that may be the subject Nehor is worried about. I do not know the particualar preacher Joel Osteeen so do not know what he encourages.

I wanted to ask Nehor if he knows this preacher or is just speaking from an LDS assumption that outsiders are all cultivating ways to sin so a popular preacher must be doing the same or devising ways to not think of sin.

Even though I do not go to churches that berate people over sin I do think the subject of sin is important. I think that people may discover what sin is and how to avoid it more effectively by considering how to help and care for each other than by collecting accusations against each other.

I was impressed once watching Jimmy Swaggart on TV. It was a strong impression if not particularly postive. He seemed to emulate the great balls of fire family connection, rock and roll celebrity but with less fun. It is easy to make a lot of noise by pointing to other peoples sins and not seeing ones own. People enjoy that sort of sin preaching because it allows them to feel superior and does nothing to touch their own sins. Now it may be possible to do the same thing with less obvious grandstanding than Swaggart used. I think even even with a pious andf holy reserve the result could be the same, sinful gloating.

[_Roger Morrison]

Nehor said, I'm in blue:

Telling people what they want to hear will always be popular. True, that's why you'll find those returning to the places they hear what they like. Whether that be "Hell Fire for sin" or whatever... Jesus gave hope but he also taught the consequences of sin. He could be harsh and didn't preach about an 'abundant' life. He promised that he would bring people the sword and that his followers would suffer.

True, that can be found in his teachings. However, I don't think that is the crux of his message, nor does it base Christianity.

John 10:10, says: "...I am come that you might have life...more abundantly." He also said, "...my burden is light (not heavy)..."

It is good to know the consequence of living in error/dysfunction--newer, broader terms for "sin". Being more secular than the religious word "sin" they have a larger audience ear; thus are more effective in the general field of communication that addresses behavioral change (repentance). It would seem to me??

Huck, Joel Osteen is an interdenominational Minister whose church is a renovated Foot Ball stadium in Texas. Very personable young man--40s--who talks to 2 or 3 sittings of about 50,000 each... You can see/hear him Sun AM 9:30 EST (Florida)--do your math...;)

Yes, fewer "Damnation Preachers" today. But the older "back-to-basics, literalist EV Rights" love to rant and sing about "The Blood." And they CAN make Jerry Lee look tame;-) To each their own, eh???
Roger
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[_richardMdBorn]

Huck, Joel Osteen is an interdenominational Minister whose church is a renovated Foot Ball stadium in Texas. Very personable young man--40s--who talks to 2 or 3 sittings of about 50,000 each... You can see/hear him Sun AM 9:30 EST (Florida)--do your math...;)

Osteen gives me the creeps. Elmer Gantry is a solid preacher compared to him.

My tastes run more towards:

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/living_grace/

[_Calculus Crusader]

Spong claims that Christianity as a whole must change to resemble his liberal brand of "Christianity" but the fact of the matter is that *his* type of "Christianity" is withering on the vine (and good riddance).

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Richard, you said:

Osteen gives me the creeps. Elmer Gantry is a solid preacher compared to him.

To each their own.

I tried your link, but couldn't get it to work... Thumbing the topics however, they seemed to be the old "...Fall, temptation, guilt, redemption by the blood of Christ, sanctification, resurection into the Kingdom of God after Armageddon..." Am I correct? I think the above would generally sketch your personal theological leaning. Am I correct?

"Elmer Gantry" is as yet alive and well for those who enjoy those Old Time Religon kinds of performances...

C.C. said:

Spong claims that Christianity as a whole must change to resemble his liberal brand of "Christianity" but the fact of the matter is that *his* type of "Christianity" is withering on the vine (and good riddance). (UL added by RM)

On the contrary CC, I think you will find "...his ... Christianity..." is just beginning to bud-on-the-vine, and in fact is more influencial that you-&-yours might care to admit.

As education plays its role in the lives of more who go on into post secondary education, I expect Christianism will play a much different, more social, role than it has. When biblical absurdities--so long believed to be true--are admitted to as mythologies, figments of ancient imaginations and legends, THEN the real message of the empathetic Christ character--we are our brothers' keeper--will persuade service-be-to-man... Rather than to an angry, demanding "God" that never did exist...
Roger
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[_ajax18]

As education plays its role in the lives of more who go on into post secondary education, I expect Christianism will play a much different, more social, role than it has. When biblical absurdities--so long believed to be true--are admitted to as mythologies, figments of ancient imaginations and legends, THEN the real message of the empathetic Christ character--we are our brothers' keeper--will persuade service-be-to-man... Rather than to an angry, demanding "God" that never did exist...

I'm sorry Roger. You're a better person than me. But I've thought this out quite often. If God doesn't exist, Jesus was just a fool, definitely not someone I would want to emulate, at least not if I wanted to salvage as much happiness as I could from this life.

If you're sure there is no God, you oughta be envying and emulating Caesar. I mean, if this life is all we get, I'd take Caesar's life over Jesus's life anyday. I'm not even sure if I'd accept "the gift," of the rotten life some poor souls ended up living. If death is nothing, it'd be a lot better overall.

Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Ajax, you said (I'll comment in Blue) :

... I've thought this out quite often. If God doesn't exist, Jesus was just a fool, definitely not someone I would want to emulate, at least not if I wanted to salvage as much happiness as I could from this life. If you read me carefully you will find that I refer to the biblical "God", although not always directly. But I'll make that clear here and now;-) Biblical "God", as intoned in scripture, never existed, by whatever name...

Which has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. Whether historical or mythological, the character Jesus personified a charitable, conscious, conscienced human beng who empathized with the element of humanity that was/is exploited by the powerful aggressives to serve their purpose.

Jesus was A philosopher-teacher of human relations. Whether Jesus was happy or not, he's said to be a man of sorrow--possibly because of the suffering he saw of the masses while their masters indulged themselves to the max--he attempted to teach individuals how to be happy and make others happy as well...Golden Rule et al...

If you're sure there is no God, you oughta be envying and emulating Caesar. I mean, if this life is all we get, I'd take Caesar's life over Jesus's life anyday. There is no biblical "God". There is a Universal order that is dependable. The more we learn about that order the better the quality of life is available to humanity, IF they can avail themselves of it. Not all can nor do. From what I've read, I would not want to live the life of Caesar or Jesus. I'm very satisfied with my own. I'm not even sure if I'd accept "the gift," of the rotten life some poor souls ended up living. Nor would I. However as humanity becomes more knowledgeable & humane I expect the number of "rotten" lives will lessen. On a per capita basis lives have improved over the 6-10,000 years of civilization. If death is nothing, it'd be a lot better overall. Death naturally follows/ends mortal life. Our biodegradable body adds its elements to the changing state of all matter. DNA/genes go on to perpetuate the species. Deeds and influences are remembered or forgotten, adding or subtracting to the overall quality of mortal life of those who come next... As they say, "That's life..."

Don't know if that better explains my "Universalist Theism"?? But it keeps me happy and enjoying my existance...
Roger
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[_richardMdBorn]

To each their own.

I tried your link, but couldn't get it to work... Thumbing the topics however, they seemed to be the old "...Fall, temptation, guilt, redemption by the blood of Christ, sanctification, resurection into the Kingdom of God after Armageddon..." Am I correct? I think the above would generally sketch your personal theological leaning. Am I correct?

"Elmer Gantry" is as yet alive and well for those who enjoy those Old Time Religon kinds of performances...

I suspect that Elmer Gantry is much closer to Joel Osteen than he is to Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

[_Roger Morrison]

Richard, you said:

I suspect that Elmer Gantry is much closer to Joel Osteen than he is to Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

You have me at a disadvatage: I'm not familiar with Martyn Lloyd-Jones. What is his theological stance? What similarity do you see between EG and JO?

What ever that might be, Joel seems a long way from the thumpers and jumpers fixated on the blood of Christ the redeemer to save them from their fallen state, as erroneously taught in the Bible. But, to each their own. "...many mansions..."
Roger
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[_harmony]

Again this is not a short reading, but an insightful one. Agreed to by an ex-Nun, Seperate School Principal and a forever student.

I think LDSism can be seen here. Change the names, time and place and the same arrogance and denial is common in both of these "Only True Churches"...

Oh, come on, Roger. That's more than a bit over the top. Some of the arrogance, and the inabilty to grasp what is important is the "now" is definitely the same (earrings, anyone?), but the Catholic church brought this current mess on themselves. We complain a lot about LDS history here, but we have nothing to compare to the sexual piccadellos of some current Catholic priests in the 2009 LDS church. Or even in the 2000 - 2009 LDS church. Not even close. This isn't history Spong is talking about; this is current events.

Personally, I have no comment on Protestantism to make. I left it long ago, as the wasteland it was, and currently remains, in my mother's church anyway. I see no more leadership, no more inspiration, no more practical advice in coping with life in any Protestant denomination, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim or any other religion or world view than I do in the LDS church. And that includes the atheists.