Response To Criticism and the Road Ahead

[_Trevor]

A prophet! We have someone who is actually willing to go out on the proverbial limb and make a prediction.

Bravo!

I don't mind doing it. This is just too absurd.

[_Pokatator]

A prophet! We have someone who is actually willing to go out on the proverbial limb and make a prediction.

Bravo!

Skinny-L Alert!!!

Where's The Nehor?

[_harmony]

It would be difficult to prove that a relationship in which the stepfather sent the stepson to UBR could be further damaged. This family was dysfunctional and had been for years.

I don't think Eric is the least bit dysfunctional.

Please try for a little reading comprehension, marg. I didn't say GoodK was dysfunctional. I said his family was dysfunctional. And you'd be hard pressed to argue the contrary.

It's quite possible the stepfather knew little about the UBR other than it promoted Mormonism and would accomodate Eric and keep him away from home. Certainly, the step father was being abusive by sending Eric away.

Sending a teenager to a home away from home is not in and of itself abusive, marg. It's not optimal, but it's no inherently abusive either. People have been doing it, some of them actually successfully, for generations. Abuse is another catagory altogether. Knowledge and intent factor into abuse, and I'm not sure you can prove that GoodK's stepfather had either, in regards to his decision to ship his stepson to Utah.

Try to not throw words around without regard for their meaning, marg.

I do think based on what the dad wrote via DCP that he is not dealing from a full deck and it is based on his literal beliefs in Mormonism.

You think anyone who believes in God isn't dealing with a full deck, so I think your comments about Stepdad are as valuable as any others you throw out at believers here... as in... worthless.

Nothing Eric has said indicates to me that he isn't rational, that he ever deserved abusive treatment, that he ever deserved to have his character maligned by both DCP & Bob. He appears to be an extremely level headed, intelligent, rational individual.

When I was a parole officer, I had a bonafide schizophrenic on my caseload. A very charming, level headed, intelligent, rational man. Sometimes. I also had a bi-polar sister in law at one point. Also very charming, level headed, intelligent, and rational. Sometimes. They are still charming, etc. both of them. They are also both institutionalized for crimes committed when they were less than charming.

My point is, you don't know anything about anyone here, other than what they put in their posts. We could all be diametrically the opposite of what you think we are, and you would never know how wrong you were. Heck, I could be a genius, and you'd (nor Daniel) would ever know.

Personally, I don't think anyone deserves to be abused, period. I don't think anyone deserves to be treated like GoodK claims to have been treated at UBR. I hope he skewers them good, if what he says is the truth. I just wish he'd hurry up and get the skewering done, because if what he says is going on there is going on there, someone needs to pay with some prison time.

The abuse inflicted on him, pretty much stems from religious individuals, the step dad, DCP, Bob and to some extent the school, wanting to control and punish Eric for not toeing the line when it comes the Mormonism. DCP and Bob have taken no interest in investigating the school, but instead have focussed their interest on attempting to discredit and malign Eric.

And you don't know this either. Until everyone has their day in court, it's all allegations, unproven allegations. And neither Daniel nor Crock has supported the school at all. I've seen both of them post many times about how unsupportive of the school they are. I think you owe them both an apology.

So I don't think you can assume Eric has anything to do with dysfunction in the family. But I think you can assume that the Church's teachings is a factor in the step dad's dysfunctionality. You can assume that the Church is affliated with the school and allows itself to be connected to the program it offers.

I don't think you can assume anything at all, marg. I certainly don't. I place a bit of faith in the justice system of the USA, and even the state of Utah. I can't wait to see this brought to court. I'm just surprised it hasn't been yet; as a matter of fact, I find it very curious that it hasn't been brought to court yet. I could see the Trib being all over it, had it actually been on the docket.

[_rcrocket]

The abuse inflicted on him, pretty much stems from religious individuals, the step dad, DCP, Bob and to some extent the school, wanting to control and punish Eric for not toeing the line when it comes the Mormonism. DCP and Bob have taken no interest in investigating the school, but instead have focussed their interest on attempting to discredit and malign Eric.

That is an unfair thing to say about me. My "abuse" has basically been to question the thoroughness of his claims, and wonder why some things don't add up Yes, I like to needle GoodK, but no more than I have needled you, Harmony or my buds Scratch and Rollo.

I don't have any interest in investigating or not investigating the school. It means nothing to me.

I was sent forth from my home at the age of 16 for supposed discipline problems and was gulag'd as well, along the lines of one of Harmony's kids, so I know what it means to see desperate parents dealing with a child who doesn't want to obey the law or go to school or otherwise be a decent person. There is a side of this story, based upon my own experience and not what I might know about GoodK, that you just assume away.

[_Pokatator]

I'm going to try to spell out my thoughts on this in one post. Good luck to me! This is me "thinking out loud" on the screen.

When GoodK posted the copy of the email about the priesthood and his sister, he did so anonymously. Following that, crocket stated that he forwarded or was planning to forward a copy of the post to GoodK's family. In response to that, GoodK stated that he would post crocket's personal contact information on the board and let the board have fun with it. (These aren't direct quotes)

Question: Would it have been okay in the eyes of this community for GoodK to have posted crocket's personal contact information on this board? (He did so recently)

And everyone conveniently forgets that the lawyer is the first to draw blood.

[_marg]

That is an unfair thing to say about me. My "abuse" has basically been to question the thoroughness of his claims, and wonder why some things don't add up

What doesn't add up Bob? Your abuse was to attempt to discredit what he had to say with regards to UBR, yet you admit to not knowing the program there.

I don't have any interest in investigating or not investigating the school. It means nothing to me.

But you have an interest in accusing Eric of lying about his experiences there. You also have an interest in defending the Church yet you see no problem with this institution aligning itself with the church. If this institution was abusive, don't you think it reflects poorly on the church for allowing it to be connected? You see the problem I have Bob, is you are so keen to be critical of Eric and so disinterested in verifying whether or not Eric's claims are true.

I was sent forth from my home at the age of 16 for supposed discipline problems and was gulag'd as well, along the lines of one of Harmony's kids, so I know what it means to see desperate parents dealing with a child who doesn't want to obey the law or go to school or otherwise be a decent person.

Or doesn't want to go to seminary at 6 a.m. ...that too I suppose could make a parent desperate.

There is a side of this story, based upon my own experience and not what I might know about GoodK, that you just assume away.

I don't think you experienced anything like these behavior modification programs, and given that you appear to know nothing about them, you aren't even in a position to compare your experiences with them.

[_rcrocket]

I don't think you experienced anything like these behavior modification programs, and given that you appear to know nothing about them, you aren't even in a position to compare your experiences with them.

[_harmony]

I will stack my being kicked out of my house for several years as a teenager against your limp argument any time.

For the record, and because Crock compared his experience with my son's, I didn't kick my son out of the house. He chose his destination and it was his choice to go. I was the one in mourning for 5 days a week for the 5 months he was gone. t was a joint decision, and in hindsight, a good one, even though at the time, I wasn't sure it was going to work.

[_harmony]

That is an unfair thing to say about me. My "abuse" has basically been to question the thoroughness of his claims, and wonder why some things don't add up

What doesn't add up Bob?

A lot of things don't add up.

Where was the initial complaint filed? Where is the investigation? Why have no charges been filed? Why has there been no hearing? Why is this place still in business? Why have no criminal charges been files? It's been months, and still no legal action is apparent.

That doesn't add up, marg. If you were half as discerning as you think you are, you'd be able to add.

Your abuse was to attempt to discredit what he had to say with regards to UBR, yet you admit to not knowing the program there.

Hell, marg. You don't know the program there either. All you have is what GoodK says and what you've read on the web. In other words, unsubstantiated allegations and that's it.

If this institution was abusive, don't you think it reflects poorly on the church for allowing it to be connected?

That's a damned big IF. Do you think we could wait for the trial, before hanging them?

I was sent forth from my home at the age of 16 for supposed discipline problems and was gulag'd as well, along the lines of one of Harmony's kids, so I know what it means to see desperate parents dealing with a child who doesn't want to obey the law or go to school or otherwise be a decent person.

Or doesn't want to go to seminary at 6 a.m. ...that too I suppose could make a parent desperate.

Again, unsubstantiated allegations.

There is a side of this story, based upon my own experience and not what I might know about GoodK, that you just assume away.

I don't think you experienced anything like these behavior modification programs, and given that you appear to know nothing about them, you aren't even in a position to compare your experiences with them.

Neither have you. I'd just like to point out that you have not experienced them either. And we only have GoodK's word that he experienced them. No investigation so far, no evidence of wrongdoing so far, no criminal charges so far, yet you're willing to hang all of them, Daniel and Bob included even though they've never expressed support for UBR at all, just because you soooooo want to believe anything that might be dirt on the LDS church.

I think you've found religion, marg!




.

[_marg]

Please try for a little reading comprehension, marg. I didn't say GoodK was dysfunctional. I said his family was dysfunctional. And you'd be hard pressed to argue the contrary.

Harmony I think you need to improve your reading comprehension. I didn't accuse you or assume you said GoodK was dysfunctional. My post was a clarification of your accusation that the family was dysfunctional, and that while some people in his family may be dysfunctional I don't think Eric is, not responsible for the family dysfunction if it is.

Sending a teenager to a home away from home is not in and of itself abusive, marg. It's not optimal, but it's no inherently abusive either. People have been doing it, some of them actually successfully, for generations. Abuse is another catagory altogether. Knowledge and intent factor into abuse, and I'm not sure you can prove that GoodK's stepfather had either, in regards to his decision to ship his stepson to Utah.

It is abusive to send a 15 year old away from family and friends to an institution known as a boot camp when there are no signficant behavioral issues. As far as intent with regards to the step dad, he was aware that GoodK would be abducted. If he thought GoodK would approve, if he respected GoodK..he would have discussed it before hand. So to some extent he had to have known what he was doing.

Try to not throw words around without regard for their meaning, marg.

It's you who doesn't seem to have much regard for the term abuse. You seem to think if some organization can get away with something legally that means there is no abuse. You also seem to lack an appreciation of the techniques these schools use. While I don't think they are all equal in abuse, I do think that sending an individual to an institution without independent objective professional qualified assessment to determine that such action is warranted is abusive irregardless that the individual is under legal age of maturity.

You think anyone who believes in God isn't dealing with a full deck, so I think your comments about Stepdad are as valuable as any others you throw out at believers here... as in... worthless.

That's not true Harmony. I've never said that someone believing in God is not dealing from a full deck. I'm not going to repeat what his dad said, but he sounds like a religious fundamentalist who thinks he's above others who in his mind are sinning.

When I was a parole officer, I had a bonafide schizophrenic on my caseload. A very charming, level headed, intelligent, rational man. Sometimes. I also had a bi-polar sister in law at one point. Also very charming, level headed, intelligent, and rational. Sometimes. They are still charming, etc. both of them. They are also both institutionalized for crimes committed when they were less than charming.

What has also gone on here is that Mormonism was shoved down Eric's throat...by his dad and by the UBR. It is reasonable for Eric to rebel, in fact it is a very sane thing to do.

My point is, you don't know anything about anyone here, other than what they put in their posts. We could all be diametrically the opposite of what you think we are, and you would never know how wrong you were. Heck, I could be a genius, and you'd (nor Daniel) would ever know.

All the more reason why shouldn't be accusing Eric's family of being dysfunctional.

Personally, I don't think anyone deserves to be abused, period. I don't think anyone deserves to be treated like GoodK claims to have been treated at UBR. I hope he skewers them good, if what he says is the truth. I just wish he'd hurry up and get the skewering done, because if what he says is going on there is going on there, someone needs to pay with some prison time.

I doubt very much prison time will result. It's not one person, it's the system, it's the laws that are allowing schools to use programs which are abusive and don't work. It's the lack of laws for protection of underage individuals.

The abuse inflicted on him, pretty much stems from religious individuals, the step dad, DCP, Bob and to some extent the school, wanting to control and punish Eric for not toeing the line when it comes the Mormonism. DCP and Bob have taken no interest in investigating the school, but instead have focussed their interest on attempting to discredit and malign Eric.

And you don't know this either. Until everyone has their day in court, it's all allegations, unproven allegations. And neither Daniel nor Crock has supported the school at all. I've seen both of them post many times about how unsupportive of the school they are. I think you owe them both an apology.

I do know they have both attempted to discredit Eric. What they have posted with regards to the school, is that they have no interested in it. So they are quite willing to insinuate Eric deserved being sent there, quite willing to discredit Eric's honesty yet make no attempt to investigate the program.

So I don't think you can assume Eric has anything to do with dysfunction in the family. But I think you can assume that the Church's teachings is a factor in the step dad's dysfunctionality. You can assume that the Church is affliated with the school and allows itself to be connected to the program it offers.

I don't think you can assume anything at all, marg. I certainly don't. I place a bit of faith in the justice system of the USA, and even the state of Utah. I can't wait to see this brought to court. I'm just surprised it hasn't been yet; as a matter of fact, I find it very curious that it hasn't been brought to court yet. I could see the Trib being all over it, had it actually been on the docket.

From the sounds of it, you've done absolutely no research into tough love/behavior modification/boot camp programs. You don't know the history of them, how long they've been around. A good place to start is the article I linked to previously. http://www.reason.com/news/show/117088.html