Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms

[_Danna]

This is a fascinating thread, and Ludwig, I will be looking for the book you recommended - it sounds very interesting and original. Thank you everyone who has commented, this is an issue I have pondered quite a bit in the past.

The problem with universalism is that it immediately reduces the power of earthly 'spritual' leaders. A religion can only thrive if its members believe that they must comply, now, in this life, with everything they are told by their leaders.

I think believers are not going to be likely to think "well I may as well sin if I feel like it" - as believers will probably want to avoid the punishment or pain involved in reconciliation in the afterlife, and live a life reflecting gratitude for the plan of salvation. BUT, there will be fewer social and family pressures keeping exbelievers and wavering believers in the fold. The 'one strike and you're out' doctrine instills fear into the hearts of parents and those who love non-believers. They must do all they can to return those who stray to the fold.

This is a significant issue for me - a perfect God could not be so cruel as to cause pain to righteous believers. A parent or spouse who is completely obedient will still live in fear and pain at the thought of their children or loved ones consigned to lesser kingdoms or outer darkness. There is no peace, security or comfort to be obtained from Mormon doctrine as it is written and taught. Other religions have to deal with the same issue of course, to varying degrees, but even the Catholics allow for salvation from purgatory after a period of punishment (my Catholic husband thinks I am going to purgatory).

If the brethren were to endorse a universalist doctrine, they would immediately lose the power to instill gripping fear in the hearts of parents and those who love exbelievers. Many of the social pressures which underlie the issues that exmos deal with (the rationale for the existence of this and other boards even) would disappear.

[_Inconceivable]

This is a significant issue for me - a perfect God could not be so cruel as to cause pain to righteous believers. A parent or spouse who is completely obedient will still live in fear and pain at the thought of their children or loved ones consigned to lesser kingdoms or outer darkness. There is no peace, security or comfort to be obtained from Mormon doctrine as it is written and taught.

I think this is a valid observation, Danna

My mother's heart breaks every moment of the day knowing (believing emotionally) that all of her children are currently lost.

Though she truly has a good heart, she is so entirely consumed by this makebelieve grief. It has turned her into an outrageous religeous zealot in order to redeem her children. Each of my siblings have banned her from their lives. Because I was the last to leave, the pain finally overtook her, this time she banned me from hers.

..and she is truly a good person. But the church broke her, teaching her that the church comes first. She's been robbed of the relationships with her children. Yeah, I know. She needs help. But she's surrounded by Mormons that will only "commend her for her integrity" and a promise of our eternal redemption after this life if she remains strong. She hasn't returned my calls or responded to my letters for over 3 years.

[_ludwigm]

... I will be looking for the book you recommended - it sounds very interesting and original. ...

It is a good book as itself.

as far as I know it is one piece of a von Bek series. Unfortunately, the other parts wasn't issued in hungarian. I have many downloaded book in english, but it is different to read things in my mother language, and downloaded things can be read only from the screen, not in bed or during travel..

[_moksha]

I tend cautiously toward universalism, and expect that there is probably progression through the kingdoms -- though I can't prove it.

This idea is very appealing. A God of universal love seems so right.

[_moksha]

The word "unconditional" does not appear in the scriptures, says this grinning man below, Russell M. Nelson (of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles), in “Divine Love,” Ensign, Feb 2003, 20. While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional.

Not one word on this page appeared in the original Bibles. They were written in Greek from an interpretation of Aramaic. Plus there are many noble sentiments that were not recorded in the Bible. But the question of why God is to worshiped rather than supplicated is found in how he regards his creations. One without universal love for his creations is merely worthy of supplication, lest this creations fall out of favor. Giving God harsh characteristics seems to be an offshoot of a human need for domination and bondage.

.

[_ajax18]

One without universal love for his creations is merely worthy of supplication

I agree. I never felt a strong desire to worship much of anything.

Giving God harsh characteristics seems to be an offshoot of a human need for domination and bondage.

Maybe it's just a recognition that God doesn't make the rules, but can only follow them. Does God still love Satan? Does He love Him the same as He loves Jesus Christ? It seems like a strange kind of love don't you think?

I never believed God loved us unconditionally anymore than I believe the woman I'm married to loves me unconditionally, or the man I work for. And I think if most LDS were truly honest with themselves, they'd see the contradiction that "unconditional" love causes. Elder Nelson is right on with this one. I'm just amazed he had the guts to stand up and say it, given the Church's efforts to mainstream and look more like the protestants. Philosophical honesty is hard to come by in a Church where leaders speak with politics in mind far more often than any concern with truth and inherent contradictions that some axioms about God cause.

[_Seven]

quote="ajax18"
Maybe it's just a recognition that God doesn't make the rules, but can only follow them. Does God still love Satan?

If Satan is really his child, then he should. (but I don't believe Satan is a person) And I think the "War in Heaven" story is one of the most ridiculous beliefs in Mormonism. The LDS doctrine that God literally cast out 1/3 of his children to outer darkness for supporting the plan that would make it fail proof to return home has never made sense to me. But we are so special for choosing the plan with free agency. I can see why Mormons believe God's love is conditional when he banishes children to eternal torment for making the wrong choice in the pre existence. But I do agree with the symbolism of the story in that free agency is the only way for us to progress and become like God.

Does He love Him the same as He loves Jesus Christ? It seems like a strange kind of love don't you think?

Do you believe Satan is the creator of evil or just the tempter?

I never believed God loved us unconditionally anymore than I believe the woman I'm married to loves me unconditionally, or the man I work for.

Do you have children? The love for your wife can not be compared to the love God has for his children or we have for our children. We should be progressing to develop this charitable feeling for our spouse and others, but with my babies it was immediate.

As a mother, the love for my children is absolutely unconditional. It doesn't mean they won't suffer consequences for bad choices they make. It also may require prison if they are choosing harmful sins. But the love is still there and I would always hope for them to repent and return home. I have some children that are much more difficult to like than others, but the unconditional love I have is equal for them all.


I think it's interesting how with each of my children I felt an immediate love from the moment I looked into their eyes. This newborn baby has done nothing to earn a mother's love when it's born but I would give my life for them. They cry and demand all their needs, keep us up all night long, and everything revolves around them..... but yet this unconditional love between parent and child exists and they have done nothing to earn it. (I know there are exceptions to this and that some parents of certain abuse/neglect or medical issues like depression don't have this bond with their children)

I believe God designed us to feel this unconditional love for our children, so we could understand the love He feels for us.

And I think if most LDS were truly honest with themselves, they'd see the contradiction that "unconditional" love causes. Elder Nelson is right on with this one. I'm just amazed he had the guts to stand up and say it, given the Church's efforts to mainstream and look more like the protestants.

[/quote]

in my opinion, he's totally wrong and the scriptures disagree with him.
Do you only love your children when they are good? We are teaching and molding them, just as God is refining us.
Hate the sin, but not the sinner.

God's love for his children is not conditional, but to become like him and enter his house is.

[_ajax18]

Parents do love their children unconditionally on earth. It's the only place I've ever seen unconditional love. My scientific mind tells me this is a survival mechanism that has more to do with the life of genes than anything spiritual. But Mormonism says all things were created spiritually first. You have a good point though on children. But Satan is God's child as well. And I think many would say that the love between God and Satan is over. So this part I don't completely understand. And it seems like in this case Elder Nelson would have a good point.

I could imagine God giving his children the best He can. Maybe He didn't do the worst He could for the 1/3 lost. Maybe that was the best He could do for them, just as the Terrestrial kingdom is the best some people can receive.

So depending on how you interpret what love is, I can see where one could take issue with Elder Nelson's statement. But I'm a strong believer that every action/decision I make counts for good or evil in some way. I always like sermons where they point out that, "Everything counts." I guess that's where I would disagree with a lot of Christians who merely believe that everything was done by Christ and all we have to do is raise our hands and say, "Yes Lord!" Then go back to being selfish, using, and mistreating other people under the mindset that after a quick repentant prayer this will all be forgotten and won't matter in the future. All that really matters is that I get mine now. To me these beliefs are worse than diabolical because it gives people a way to keep sinning and believe there are no consequences. Yet I think a lot of Christians conclude this when the pressure is on.

[_Seven]

So depending on how you interpret what love is, I can see where one could take issue with Elder Nelson's statement. But I'm a strong believer that every action/decision I make counts for good or evil in some way. I always like sermons where they point out that, "Everything counts." I guess that's where I would disagree with a lot of Christians who merely believe that everything was done by Christ and all we have to do is raise our hands and say, "Yes Lord!" Then go back to being selfish, using, and mistreating other people under the mindset that after a quick repentant prayer this will all be forgotten and won't matter in the future. All that really matters is that I get mine now. To me these beliefs are worse than diabolical because it gives people a way to keep sinning and believe there are no consequences. Yet I think a lot of Christians conclude this when the pressure is on.

Hi Ajax, :)
I agree with you that there are scientific reasons for the bonding that occurs between mother and baby but as I mentioned, I believe God designed us that way not only for survival but to teach us.
But I don't think that accounts for all of it. A child that is adopted can also be loved unconditionally by the parent.


Mormons often distort what mainstream Christians believe on the atonement and my LDS community taught me this erroneous view of Christian salvation too. in my opinion, it's a very inaccurate characterization of Christian belief.

A person who professes a belief in Christ and says a quick repentant prayer has not met the conditions of the atonement. I personally don’t know any Christian who believes they can commit any manner of sin and make it to heaven by drawing only unto Christ with their lips.
A person who lives a life of sin, will be in their own hell from the consequences of their choices. Coming to the cross with words means nothing if they do not repent and forgive. Only then can Christ’s blood wash them clean from their sins. This is basic Biblical stuff here and for a Christian to not understand that would mean they aren't Christian. So a person like the one you describe above, does not understand what it means to repent and will be in hell/spirit prison/purgatory until he meets those conditions of Christ’s payment for his sins. Christians believe repentance requires a change of heart and action. It doesn’t mean they won’t sin again, but are trying to follow Christ.

They also understand that in our carnal state, we can never achieve perfection in this life. To try and earn salvation by our works negates the atonement. We all die in sin, and all of us need Christ’s atoning blood, even though our mistakes may fall on different ends of the spectrum.

A person who has lived a life of terrible sin is going to go through hell when they finally convert to Christ. Anyone of us who have repented for sin knows the pain of feeling sorry for the harm we caused another and regretting our choices. So I don't see how

"it gives people a way to keep sinning and believe there are no consequences"

It will be a much more painful and challenging road in repenting and forgiving for a life of wickedness than a person who lived a life of good works. That's in addition to the mortal consequences here on earth that bring them misery. So it’s not as if a person gets away with murder here.


What they do believe is that Christ paid the debt for all of our sins, to meet the demands of justice. If my son committed a heinous crime, I would willingly give myself as payment for his sin to spare him the punishment. But can I? Would my blood meet the mother's demand for justice as she is suffering the loss of her child? No matter what I do, it can't. It is only because this mother has sinned herself and in need of forgiveness that Christ's atonement can heal her by forgiving my son. Only the blood of a perfect God could pay the debt and He did it for all of us. Not just the people who commit the little sins.



It seems like LDS expect reward for their good behavior, as if the person who is living in wickedness is having all the fun, the easy life. This makes no sense to me because "wickedness never was happiness." Living the gospel and overcoming our carnal/sensual desires might take a lot of work and sacrifice but it's supposed to bring happiness. Why would anyone think that living a good life and enjoying the fruits of it here on earth deserves a better Kingdom in heaven than someone else? You might as well say sin brings happiness and it’s not fair that they get to do it while we are stuck living the commandments.. Judging people into different kingdoms based on their sins or rejection of Joseph Smith's religion with no hope of progression, seems a very puerile way of looking at heaven.


If a person has truly repented of their sins, as Christians we should desire ALL of our brothers and sisters to come back home. If we don’t desire that for all, then we don’t have charity in our hearts and will not be allowed in God’s kingdom ourselves. We shouldn’t care about who lived a more faithful life or what religion a person belonged to.

Do these Mormons who reject progression between kingdoms feel like they deserve more in the next life because they performed more good works? Is living the LDS religion such a burdensome way of life in comparison to those who are inactive or breaking the commandments that they must get recompense? It makes me wonder how happy they really are........



This joke is a classic:

A man died and was spirited to Heaven, where he met St. Peter at the gate.

"Welcome to Heaven. I'll be showing you around." They walked a short way and came upon a group of people singing, shouting and raising their arms in the air..."This is where the pentacostal followers worship."

They walked a little further and saw some people taking holy communion "Over here are the Catholics".

They walked by several more groups of followers openly worshiping in their own ways. Then Peter said "shhh, be very quiet now" as they walked past a long, tall brick wall. On the other side they could hear shouting and singing - what sounded like a big party going on.

The man asked who was behind the wall. Peter said "Oh, those are the Mormons...they think they're the only ones here!"

[_ajax18]

wickedness never was happiness.

Maybe not eternal happiness, but I'm certainly happier ignoring Christian principles in life than I am living them. Christianity does not make me any happier in this life. In fact, it's made my life worse. That's the whole reason I'm concerned with whether it's true or not. Perhaps you disagree or blame me for feeling that way, but to me it's just an observation that I've made about my life. It's just a fact. Now you could argue that people around me are happier when I'm living Christian principles, but not me. There is no gurantee that just because I'm nice other people will return the favor.

My main disagreement when talking with other Christian sects is the idea of being "saved." They believe that once you are saved, it can't be undone. I disagree with this. Once again, every decision counts. My salvation will be proportional to what I make of it.

Perhaps that doesn't sit well with you. I understand when a doctrine or idea doesn't sit well with me, and I know that nothing is going to change the way I feel about it. It just is what it is. And I sense you're probably in the same boat, allbeit on the other side of the river. So I guess it's ok to disagree to a point. Most Christians I've met do strive to live Christian principles to an extent in spite of my disagreements. But I believe Mormonisms beliefs are more powerful motivators, at least for people like myself. I think most active Mormons do live more taxing Christlike lives than most of those of other faiths are willing to endure. Granted not all, but most.

While God is our father and theoretically should also possess that unconditional parental love, our future certainly seems conditional in some way on what we do now. It seems like that statement would cover most any Christian belief system.

Now if God is the way you say and looks down on people that look like myself who look for fairness in the life to come than this would surely be a God I'd feel worthy of my supplication (he's all powerful I have no choice) but by no means would I desire to worship Him. I simply don't like this God very much because I feel like He's actually facilitating my siblings propensity to use and take advantage of me. I don't think I deserve to be subject to the buffetings of Satan for that. At the very least He could give me a rock to be by myself. That would be fine with me.