Dr. Shades wrote:Were no one contacted in real life, no humiliation would've been at all possible.
Are you saying that it was in fact the Mopologists who humiliated GoodK's stepfather? Yes. I can see it so clearly now. It was perhaps a way of saying "I guess we see who can't keep control over his own kids." How characteristically Mormon, when you get down to it.
When I rejected Mormonism, I was 'shunned' by my parents (well Mum mainly, Dad - who is my step father - respected her wishes but did quietly keep in contact) for several years, as were the next two sisters in their turn when they also left (I am the oldest of 10 kids). We were close siblings, and it was a very painful time. An attempt to 'sort things out' with a visit when I was about Eric's age had Mum taking to her bed for three days straight and Dad asking what I had done to hurt her so much.
I had decamped to my atheist grandmother when I was nearly 17, I have no doubt that if an option like Westridge academy had been available I would have been sent there. At 14 I had been sent to CCNZ, the church boarding school - initially against my wishes, but I ended up having a very positive experience with the school as I had more freedom there than at home. In fact, realising that the school was having the opposite to the intended effect, Mum had decided to bring me home for the more fundamentalist indoctrination she could provide, which resulted in my absconding. Various other options were used with my siblings, which did include NZ's answer to bootcamp - the Army Limited Service Volunteers (a six month course for wayward 16 & 17 year olds)- for one brother.
It is very painful and difficult to get through. Mum genuinely thought she was doing the right thing - tough love or something like it, and she went through a very hard time too, trying to balance an all consuming religion with love for her kids. Mormon parents know that tolerance is not an option. She believed that my falling away could influence the remaining children, and put their eternal lives in jeopardy as well. Through it all, much was said that was hurtful on both sides. Eventually a truce was called, but even now old wounds open every now and then, and we are continually tip-toeing around sensitive topics.
I sincerely hope that Eric and his family do eventually work through this, hopefully without lawsuits. Eric's post, reposted here, is benign considering the stress he would have felt given the family situation and his sister's illness. But as such, I also don't see how DCP could have forseen the trouble which resulted from passing it on to his friend - especially when Eric had said "I want to ask him...". With the benefit of hindsight, one can think of many ways to deal with the situation in a better way.
In both of our cases there are institutional barriers to open and loving family relationships. I believe that LDS doctrine is incompatible with the tolerance and unconditional love that should exist between family members. I know others on the board disagree. For many years though, I blamed my parents, when now I understand that they are essentially 'victims' (for want of a better word) as well.
A last point, If I recall correctly Bob asked earlier on why there were not more suits taken against UBR. My trawling through the internet on these 'behavior modification' schools uncovered a measly 4 year statute of limitations for such cases in Utah. After going through such an experience, having been subjected to it by parents, it would be the very rare teen who would be strong, informed, wealthy, and safe enough to pursue a case.
Danna wrote:At 14 I had been sent to CCNZ, the church boarding school - initially against my wishes, but I ended up having a very positive experience with the school as I had more freedom there than at home. In fact, realising that the school was having the opposite to the intended effect, Mum had decided to bring me home for the more fundamentalist indoctrination she could provide, which resulted in my absconding. Various other options were used with my siblings, which did include NZ's answer to bootcamp - the Army Limited Service Volunteers (a six month course for wayward 16 & 17 year olds)- for one brother.
It is shocking that so many Mormon parents jump immediately to shipping their children off to private prisons and military schools, when something goes awry. There were families in my ward who did exactly the same with their children. If little Tommy starts wearing droopy drawers, they go apoplectic. Amazing stuff, when you think about it. A real alarmist crowd these Mormons, or maybe latently militaristic.
Danna wrote:At 14 I had been sent to CCNZ, the church boarding school - initially against my wishes, but I ended up having a very positive experience with the school as I had more freedom there than at home. In fact, realising that the school was having the opposite to the intended effect, Mum had decided to bring me home for the more fundamentalist indoctrination she could provide, which resulted in my absconding. Various other options were used with my siblings, which did include NZ's answer to bootcamp - the Army Limited Service Volunteers (a six month course for wayward 16 & 17 year olds)- for one brother.
It is shocking that so many Mormon parents jump immediately to shipping their children off to private prisons and military schools, when something goes awry. There were families in my ward who did exactly the same with their children. If little Tommy starts wearing droopy drawers, they go apoplectic. Amazing stuff, when you think about it. A real alarmist crowd these Mormons, or maybe latently militaristic.
I think it's more likely that the ex-Mormon crowd have a greater propensity for coming from these places. Make of that what you will.
Scratchopolis wrote:I think it's more likely that the ex-Mormon crowd have a greater propensity for coming from these places. Make of that what you will.
Why, thank you for the opportunity. Having been pressed into the tight and uncomfortable confines of a gray and humorless religion, these ex-Mormons to be kick up their heels in less-than-Mo-acceptable ways. Their starch-shirted, ankle-length-skirted parents go berserk and ship them off to an even more oppressive environment, and when they emerge, tattered, bruised, and betrayed, a spark survives and they somehow find the strength to pull their lives together and walk out of the religion that almost ruined their lives.
1. There was absolutely nothing humiliating in GoodK's OP. GoodK expressed concern for his step-sister and did not disclose any identifying information concerning the family.
2. The topic was one many people, including myself find interesting.
3. The tattling should never have happened evidenced by the result of the tattling.
~td~ Edit so the post will make sense. :-)
Last edited by Bing [Bot] on Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
1. There was absolutely nothing humiliating in GoodK's OP. GoodK expressed concern for his step-sister and did not disclose any identifying information concerning the family.
2. The topic was one many people, including myself find interesting.
3. The tattling should never have happened evidenced by the result of the tattling.
~td~
And hence why DCP has checked out of the thread. I'm sure you've noticed by now that he consistently bails whenever he has been painted into a corner. (It's the same with his refusal to address the points on the "FARMS Ziggurat" thread.)
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
Lucky for us, there is no way Utah-type bootcamps would be allowed downunda.
I think a big issue is that the Utah education and/or legal system allows such institutions. Not to mention the crazy statute of limitations. During the several hours I spent trawling yesterday, I came across a site with this warning:
HEAL recommends no parent subject any child to any program in Utah as Utah is corrupt and refuses to regulate or take action against confirmedly abusive programs such as WWASPS, Provo Canyon School, Sorenson's Ranch, etc... Don't send your kid to UT!
The subject line of the OP contains a key issue: "LDS Perception of Family Humiliation". In our individualistic western culture, the authoritarian and collective mindset of the Mormons does seem to produce different ideas about what it means to be part of a family. The Mormon mindset seems closer to some subsets of Islam, the foregone blood atonement teachings are basically along the same thinking that results in honour killings in Jordan and Pakistan.
To have a difference in opinion with the patriarch, or anyone else with 'authority' is to deliberately offend them. The worst sin a child can commit is 'wilful disobediance'. So to turn things around, if a patriarch cannot produce perfectly compliant children, is his priesthood weakened? In his eyes, or the eyes of the rest of the priesthood?
I can somewhat understand Daniel bailing, if he is worried about a lawsuit. I was hoping, however, that maybe by bringing up the subject and looking at the actual post with fresh eyes might allow for some perspective.
What I find more interesting is that it seems that Bob Crockett has once again bailed with his tail between his legs because this is an argument he can't win. It's a pity, realiy.
I was genuinely curious as to what in the post he found humiliating.
BC? Any other TBM's out there who can shed some light on this question?