Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

[_moksha]

Truth Dancer:

I understood the latest thinking to be that somehow Abraham forgot to start at the first of the scroll and added his much older Reformed Egyptian story to a long scroll of papyrus. Later on this spare space was noted by a priestly scribe, who was trying to keep Egypt green, and so wrote a funerary text on the unused portion of this scroll. Later on for some unknown reason, the last six feet of the scroll which contained the real Book of Abraham disappeared.


* that part about keeping Egypt green was a guess on my part. Could be these Priests were also conservatives who would scoff at such green efforts.

[_Danna]

I believe that the Book of Abraham was produced in the same fashion as the Book of Mormon and D&C 7,

This is very confusing. So the real text was hidden somewhere else and JSjr read it through gazing at a stone in the bottom of his hat? The actual papyrus served what function?

And how did Ptolemaic influences get into the Book of Abraham? Was the Book of Abraham reinterpreted midway between Abraham's time and ours? Seriously, that would imply that an actual ptolemaic document were translated by JSjr. Is there any evidence that this occurred?

[_Kishkumen]

This is very confusing. So the real text was hidden somewhere else and JSjr read it through gazing at a stone in the bottom of his hat? The actual papyrus served what function?

And how did Ptolemaic influences get into the Book of Abraham? Was the Book of Abraham reinterpreted midway between Abraham's time and ours? Seriously, that would imply that an actual ptolemaic document were translated by JSjr. Is there any evidence that this occurred?

Don't hold your breath waiting for answers to questions that make a difference. You should be asking about manuscript minutiae in the KEP and GAEL. Oh, wait, you and I are not interested in arguments that have little direct bearing on the claim that the Book of Abraham is a translation of an ancient text. I almost forgot.

[_Mad Viking]

for why text from the sensen papyrii were canonized in the Book of Abraham. I am referring to the sensen text used to reconstruct the outer border of Facsimile #2.

[_Chap]

Oh, you do provide Mr. Ritner's overused quote, which is really irrelevant, since Baer was only estimating the total width of the scroll if all it contained was the Sensen text and the two facsimiles (#1 and #3). Besides, if Ritner wants to dispute Gee's calculations about the length of the scroll (which now place the total length of the scroll not at 320cm, but rather 1200cm!), as based on the lacunae, his argument is not with Gee, but rather with Hoffman, whose widely-accepted calculations Gee is using.

As this thread shows, Gee's attempt to use a formula to derive an original scroll length of anything like 1200 cm does not hold water at all.

(I don't care, by the way, whether the formula was originally derived by Santa's elves: Gee decided to use it, and Gee must stand by the results. Mathematics stands or falls by itself; it is not a topic where appeals to authority have any value or relevance.)

[_Inconceivable]

I believe that the Book of Abraham was produced in the same fashion as the Book of Mormon and D&C 7,

This is very confusing. So the real text was hidden somewhere else and JSjr read it through gazing at a stone in the bottom of his hat? The actual papyrus served what function?

I got another question,

Did the presence of the actual papyri impede Smith's ability to translate?

Book of Abraham: How long did it take to translate 42 pages? What? 2+ years? On top of that it was incomplete.

Book of Mormon: Complete work 421 pages = about 90 days

Is it because Smith was no longer an uneducated farmboy? No angel to require he finish it? Distractions? Anyone want to take a stab at this?

[_Inconceivable]

Seriously,

To see Smith's egyptian alphabet, wouldn't that be a simple pass/fail?

I mean, either it parallels the Rosetta Stone translation or it's ABLOCT?

Is this a fair assesment?

*a butt load of crap - theory

The apologists readily admit that the Egyptian Alphabet is, as you say, a butt load of crap. But they tell us that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with the GAEL, which was just Joseph's scribes trying their hand (unsuccessfully) at translating the Egyptian. If I understand the argument right, Chris Smith and Brent Metcalfe argue that the GAEL are the scribes' copies of Joseph's translation, which, if it's true, nullifies the missing scroll theory.

So we are asked to believe that scribes, sitting at the feet of a prophet, were responsible for the GAEL?

What were these guys doing for Smith while he was translating? We are asked to believe that Smith surrounded himself with scribes so arrogant, ignorant and unteachable that they would not gleen any understanding from the only man that claimed the gift?

[_Dr. Shades]

Book of Abraham: How long did it take to translate 42 pages? What? 2+ years? On top of that it was incomplete.

Book of Mormon: Complete work 421 pages = about 90 days

Is it because Smith was no longer an uneducated farmboy? No angel to require he finish it? Distractions? Anyone want to take a stab at this?

Yes.

In the Book of Abraham's case, he didn't have a Spalding manuscript to read off from.

[_harmony]

In the Book of Abraham's case, he didn't have a Spalding manuscript to read off from.

Okay, that was funny!

[Guest]

Hi Dr. Shades,

Yes.

In the Book of Abraham's case, he didn't have a Spalding manuscript to read off from.

I respectfully disagree—on both counts: 1) Spalding (nor Rigdon for that matter) surely didn't share Joseph Smith's quaint, meandering, rustic style of speech pervasive in the BoMor manuscripts, and 2) Smith may have dictated the BoAbr proper in as little as four or five days.

Kind regards,

</brent>

Edit: Corrected my greeting per moderator request.

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The thesis of inspiration may not be invoked to guarantee historicity, for a divinely inspired story is not necessarily history.
—Raymond E. Brown