Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

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_William Schryver
_Emeritus
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:58 pm

Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _William Schryver »

Metcalfe:
... you should have no problem answering the questions I asked Royal and Brian:

Brent Metcalfe to Royal Skousen and Brian Hauglid, 9 November 2007 wrote:
• What was the specific text-critical evidence in manuscripts 1a (fldr. 2), 1b (fldr. 3), and 2 (fldr. 1) that convinced you that the repetitive ending in ms. 1a is "definitely a question of visual dittography arising from copying from another manuscript ... [a 'mistake' that] can definitely occur when someone is coming back to copying after some delay," and that Will's "analysis seems perfectly correct"?
• Can you provide two or three decisive examples of scribal "errors" that in your judgment "readily occur in a second copying" which involve the duplication of over 100 words?

Schryver also says that Royal has an analysis of the dittograph that “will be published in the near future.” Where and when will this analysis be published?

In my own view, dittography is a scribal error; and given my analysis, I am highly skeptical that the redundant text on page 4 of ms. 1a (fldr. 2) can be properly classified as dittography.


Brian graciously replied, though he didn't address my questions specifically. Royal's Inbox is evidently a selective black hole.

I look forward to your documented answers.

Well, now, that wasn’t so hard, was it?

My answers you will get – though not here, as I’ve already indicated. There is far too much annoying background noise in this venue to make any such discussion worth your while or mine. But I will, as promised, respond to your request for “answers” in a post extending the previous discussion of this issue in the School of the Pundits forum on the MAD board.

Then, I will look forward to your engagement of those arguments.
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Don't you grow weary of such puerile taunts?

Not really.

Oh, sometimes -- just for variety -- I’ll go from puerile to provocative, and even venture all the way to polemical, only to quickly leap to solemnly serious when you least expect it.

Does it weary you?

Yes, when I was in my mid-twenties (I turn 51 in a few weeks) I occasionally chatted about Hofmann's "non-existent McClellin collection"; but unlike LDS apostle Dallin Oaks and now deceased general authority Hugh Pinnock, I never tried to sell it.

Well, I suppose enough water has gone under the bridge now that we can start to expect the revisionist history versions of those days to start appearing. I wonder what Bob Stott would say about your statement above? I think I might just ask him …

… I did invite Brian Hauglid to discuss text-critical intricacies with me on MormonApologetics.org (Brian declined); I also told Craig Foster that I'd be willing to explicate my BoAbr stemma codicum on a panel with Brian Hauglid, John Gee, and John Tvedtnes at the next FAIR conference.

So, you proposed a panel consisting of the above-mentioned three academics, all of whom are well into the process of having produced a vitae of considerable length in the areas of their special expertise, in addition to various Book of Abraham-related questions.

Somehow, I can’t help but wonder, when your proposal was taken under consideration, if the people envisioning the whole thing – you and the three professors on a stage – started humming to themselves:

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?


One of these things …


Now, I’m as much in favor of affirmative action as the next guy, but when it comes to some things, the simple truth is that there is a perceived need for symmetry; for balance.

And, your own sense of stature notwithstanding, the facts would not presently justify your inclusion in a panel of the sort you have proposed. And, as distasteful to you as it must be to acknowledge, an outsider looking in on this scene would conclude that it is not you and the three professors who constitute a peer group, but (and I just know how painful this is to even consider) your only logical current peer when it comes to these questions is ...that’s right ... me: Mr. Obnoxious Johnny-Come-Lately with his high-resolution scans and vulgar sciolism in tow. :lol:

Of course, that shouldn’t be viewed as bad news for you. After all, as unsatisfying as it may prove to be in the actual doing, it will surely not be difficult at all for you to quickly establish the supremacy of your knowledge and arguments, thereby reducing me – once and for all – to nothing more than a quaint, but faint and fading memory in the rear-view mirror of Book of Abraham studies. :wink:
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In any case, and all “puerile” posturing aside, I will – as soon as time and opportunity permits – directly respond to your topical request above concerning the long dittograph on page #4 of KEPA #2. Look for it sometime early next week …
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Does is weary you?


Nuf said
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Kevin Graham »

My answers you will get – though not here


Like I said, your balls have been removed.
_Pokatator
_Emeritus
Posts: 1417
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:38 pm

Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Pokatator »

Kevin Graham wrote:
My answers you will get – though not here


Like I said, your balls have been removed.


Willy, in the past used the avatar of the brainless Scarecrow maybe he should use the Cowardly Lion. The lion an Oz character going to see the wizard to acquire a set balls and help for growing a spine. Actually a combination Scarecrow/Lion would be perfect for Willy.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
bcspace
_William Schryver
_Emeritus
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:58 pm

Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _William Schryver »

Pokatator wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:Like I said, your balls have been removed.


Willy, in the past used the avatar of the brainless Scarecrow maybe he should use the Cowardly Lion. The lion an Oz character going to see the wizard to acquire a set balls and help for growing a spine. Actually a combination Scarecrow/Lion would be perfect for Willy.

Does this mean I'm no longer welcome at the tea-bagging parties going on around the country?

I'm so disappointed. Tea Bagging in America?

Anyway, so you're suggesting kind of a Cowardly Scarecrow motif, eh?

I can see the fashion possibilities.

And I really dig the lion's mane after the chicks in the beauty parlor get through with it ...

You know, I'm going to give it some serious thought and get back to you.
Last edited by The Stig on Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_silentkid
_Emeritus
Posts: 1606
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:50 pm

Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _silentkid »

William Schryver wrote:Does this mean I'm no longer welcome at the tea-bagging parties going on around the country?

:lol:
Rickety Cricket and blue dye.
_Brackite
_Emeritus
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:12 am

Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Brackite »

Kishkumen wrote:
Paul O. wrote: It is Egyptologically incorrect to suggest that the Book of Abraham could be found on a religous scroll containing sacred spells and images of the Egyptian gods. Shall we put the Koran on the altars of the Mormon temple? Shall we include a chapter of Charles Larson's book in the covers of the Doctrine & Covenants?


It is a fact that Alexandrian Jews identified the Hellenistic-Egyptian god Sarapis with Joseph of Egypt. Would Paul O. say that this didn't happen because he finds it "Egyptologically incorrect"? His argument is flawed and relies on a vision of religious segregation that was not consistently observed in antiquity. I like Paul, but he's wrong on this one.



Hello Kishkumen,

You are very likely right about this piece of information.
However, I still strongly think and believe that Paul O. is absolutely right when he stated in his first Paragraph that:

I think it’s quite safe for people to assume that funerary documents never contain stories that are victoriously antagonistic towards the gods of Egypt!
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Brackite wrote:You are very likely right about this piece of information.
However, I still strongly think and believe that Paul O. is absolutely right when he stated in his first Paragraph that:
I think it’s quite safe for people to assume that funerary documents never contain stories that are victoriously antagonistic towards the gods of Egypt!

I agree, Brackite. For one thing, funerary documents were interned in a tomb to help guide the soul to the netherworld. A narrative tale like the Book of Abraham isn't much good in a tomb, so there wouldn't be much point to including it on a funerary roll. The tale of Meryre cited by Gee is on the recto (front) of its roll, and has a funerary document on the verso (back). Basically what's happened here is someone didn't want the Meryre tale anymore, so the papyrus was recycled by writing on the verso. In the case of the Hor Book of Breathings, though, the BoB is on the recto, not the verso. So this is not a case of recycling, and Gee's cited precedent is irrelevant.

And, as you point out, the Book of Abraham is directly polemical not only against pagan Egyptian deities but against the pharaohs' claim to priesthood. It also flies in the face of Egyptian nationalism, making Abraham the author of the astronomical science. When the Egyptian priests try to slaughter Abraham on an altar for his blasphemy, they are foiled by the Hebrew deity. Hardly the sort of document that would be of interest to Hor, a priest of Min Who Slaughters His Enemies.

Best,

-Chris
_Brent Metcalfe
_Emeritus
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:37 am

Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Brent Metcalfe »

Hi Will,

Your summary is telling...


William Schryver wrote:
So, you proposed a panel consisting of the above-mentioned three academics, all of whom are well into the process of having produced a vitae of considerable length in the areas of their special expertise, in addition to various Book of Abraham-related questions.



You're a cornucopia of Twilight Zone moments. You previously claimed I'm unwilling to lay my textual scholarship before an informed, skeptical audience. When I show that's precisely the venue I've requested, you now claim I'm not worthy to participate in such a forum.

*sigh!*

So now you're peddling extra virgin snake oil.

About a week ago I told Brian of my intention to place my diplomatic transcripts (including text-critical annotations) on one of my Web sites (I've substantially revised my readings based on new electronic methods I've developed for deciphering erasures). You've helped me reconsider.

Best of luck in your studies, Will—I think you need it (along with a good dose of introspection).

Ciao,

</brent>

http://mormonscripturestudies.com
(© 2009 Brent Lee Metcalfe. All rights reserved.)
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The thesis of inspiration may not be invoked to guarantee historicity, for a divinely inspired story is not necessarily history.
—Raymond E. Brown
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Brent Metcalfe wrote:About a week ago I told Brian of my intention to place my diplomatic transcripts (including text-critical annotations) on one of my Web sites (I've substantially revised my readings based on new electronic methods I've developed for deciphering erasures). You've helped me reconsider.


:cry:
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