Westridge & Other Schools(Formerly LDS Perceptions thread)

[_marg]

Jersey Girl just for the record what I've said to you, my opinions has not been a function of correspondences with Eric, I know nothing about the legalities involved. I do think what he is doing is the right approach, that is informing parents, informing the LDS church via his web site of what the program is like at Westridge. I think it's a waste of time informing Gov't authorities for abuses which likely can't be proven by him, likely aren't considered separately as severe or major enough for action, and may not even be considered illegal under current laws. And I think it's the right approach to consult a lawyer or lawyers for possible remedies.

And good for him if he writes a book about his experiences.

[_rcrocket]

And since I was friends with your family, I felt that somebody had to stick up for your dad, your Mom and your poor sister.

Butt out of another's personal family affairs, Bishop.

It became public.

[_marg]

Not me. Whatever inside information I have about you I have never shared. With anybody. Principally because I can't sort out truth from fact and so I leave it at not knowing anything.

But, GoodK, I just don't buy large parts of your story.

You have been asked a number of times to specify what you don't believe about Eric's story and you've yet to answer on that point. So you give no one, Eric as well, something to counter and yet you are attacking his character by essentially calling him a liar.

[_rcrocket]

The entire story -- the slant, the thread, the emphasis; it is like asking me what I don't believe about Melvin Dummar's relationship with Howard Hughes.

The statement: "No speaking, sitting, or anything but working or reading LDS literature." There is no way this could be a licensed secondary school with that kind of restriction.

"On Tuesday night they would meet with all the boys with sexual issues and provide remedies like IcyHot on the penis to stifle homosexual urges." Because he does not characterize this in the first person, I don't believe.

Lots of clues in the story suggest exaggeration.

I know GoodK was there. That I believe. There is some truth in the story.

As far as attacking his character is concerned, virtually every poster on this board who takes a stand is questioned or disparaged by another. You attack persons' characters with every third posts. It is the nature of this board. I simply question his story on a number of fronts. Sorry. It is my opinion.

[_marg]

The entire story -- the slant, the thread, the emphasis; it is like asking me what I don't believe about Melvin Dummar's relationship with Howard Hughes.

The statement: "No speaking, sitting, or anything but working or reading LDS literature." There is no way this could be a licensed secondary school with that kind of restriction.

Well I never read there was "no speaking, sitting or anything but working or reading LDS literature". What I read was that initially boys start out with virtually no privileges, no communication with family for about 2 weeks - a month. They are essentially humiliated when they first arrive...that most have to wear a blanket, face the cafeteria wall, no speaking to each other allowed..at this point it's a small group 5 or less. My impression is that they don't get the right to talk freely with others until they have read first chapter of Nephi and can paraphrase it, nor read any books of any kind other than the Book of Mormon. As time goes on those who comply with whatever they are asked to do, gain some privileges. But frankly it is confusing to me whether everyone starts out with the same lack of privileges, with the same treatment of humilation. And it is confusing to me how long it takes to progress to greater privileges and exactly what they are.

"On Tuesday night they would meet with all the boys with sexual issues and provide remedies like IcyHot on the penis to stifle homosexual urges." Because he does not characterize this in the first person, I don't believe.

I actually read about that experience from someone on their blog. It is a very credible story, but I don't think anyone else what have been subjected to that. This fellow was because in a forced confession to the therapist and parents he said he fantacized about using Icy Hot and the only reason he said that was because at some point in his life he had heard some guys talking about it being used to prolong erection and the therapist was wanting a confession of some sort. by the way this fellow was homosexual. I do believe the Icy Hot experience happened. It illustrates the lack of competence at least at one time, of that particular therapist. If that therapist did that, what else is he capable of doing and what does it say about the schools ability to hire competent therapists. Eric apparently knows and has talked with this person.

Lots of clues in the story suggest exaggeration.

Perhaps there is some exaggeration, but I find on the whole Eric hasn't really said all that much about his experiences. My opinion of Westridge includes information from its web site and a gleaning of information off the Net of behavior modification programs. Given Westridge's website along with what Eric has said, gives me good reason to think the school uses a graded level behavior mod program which is common in other treatment schools. I don't think it's as bad as Tranquility Bay or some other places but I have to ask why should any individual be subjected to that sort of program without first an independent assessment by a qualified person to determine whether behavioral treatment is warranted. The other issue I have is that a one size treatment can not possibly fit all. While these program may be effective in getting compliance short term, there is no reason to think long term in the enviroment outside of the program they are effective. How can inward behavior be changed for the better through punishment and humiliation. Perhaps for criminals such treatement is justified but not for kids sent there for no reason greater than the parents dislike their teen's rebellion.

As far as attacking his character is concerned, virtually every poster on this board who takes a stand is questioned or disparaged by another. You attack persons' characters with every third posts. It is the nature of this board. I simply question his story on a number of fronts. Sorry. It is my opinion.

That's true however, both you and DCP have talked about knowing him and his family personally and both of you have insinuated that he's not to be trusted, believed, that things he has done are deserving of being sent away for 2 years to a behavior modification school which focuses on punishment as the means to change behavior. And you seem to have been on a sort of a mission to get this across. You don't participate much on this board except for this issue.

[_Jersey Girl]

marg,

Tell me what you think Eric means by this:

what I could be doing to prevent institutionalized, for-profit child abuse

[_marg]

marg,

Tell me what you think Eric means by this:

what I could be doing to prevent institutionalized, for-profit child abuse

I'm just heading out the door for the evening. If this is important or leads somewhere then explain and I'll answer later this evening or tomorrow. I think it's pretty obvious what he means which is why I'm not that interested in responding at the moment.

[_harmony]

One more thing; while it is very easy for me to ignore the nosy, not-so-smart, nobodies here, it's really hard for me to stomach some type of glorified babysitter pontificating about what I could be doing to prevent institutionalized, for-profit child abuse while I have singlehandedly, without a doubt, done more to prevent child abuse in the last six months than anyone participating on this board. Period.

What... exactly... have you done? (I'm very interested, because I know what Jersey's done in the last 6 months.. what Jersey does every day... to prevent child abuse, so I'm wondering what it is you think you've done, that Trump's her?)

(You realize you sound as egotistical as Joseph Smith, when he claimed to have done more for mankind than anyone else, with the single exception of Jesus Christ, and he wasn't sure he hadn't done more than Christ... don't you? How do you manage to get your head through a standard doorway?)

[_rcrocket]

Well I never read there was "no speaking, sitting or anything but working or reading LDS literature".

A direct quote from his account.

"On Tuesday night they would meet with all the boys with sexual issues and provide remedies like IcyHot on the penis to stifle homosexual urges." Because he does not characterize this in the first person, I don't believe." -- I actually read about that experience from someone on their blog. It is a very credible story

No, I have given a direct quote from his account. And I don't find it credible. But, each to his own.

by the way this fellow was homosexual.

GoodK doesn't claim to be gay.

both of you have insinuated that he's not to be trusted, believed, that things he has done are deserving of being sent away for 2 years to a behavior modification school which focuses on punishment as the means to change behavior.

I have never, ever, said any such thing. I don't believe his story, but that isn't the same thing as saying what is contained in your quote. I think your posts are foolish and not very discriminating about facts and evidence, but that doesn't mean that I think you should be locked up in an insane asylum or convicted as a felon for fraud. I think your writing is poor and unfocused, suggesting not a very focused or rigorous analytical process, but that doesn't mean I think you ought to be housed in a psychiatric institution. Merely because I criticize GoodK's blogged piece and the way he goes about championing it does not mean that I think he is some sort of criminal or sociopath. One can be critical of one's statements and not commit to anything else. You seem to think that if I assert any criticism about somebody on this board, I have committed some high crime against their character. Not so.

I have not defended Westridge's program. I don't know enough about it to do so.

Finally, I have never insinuated that I know things about GoodK to think he should have been locked away. I challenge you again to point me to a place where I have done so.

[_Ray A]

Just for interest I'm posting a report made to the Australian Parliament, to show how this can occur almost anywhere:

Senator Woodley speaks on the abuse of children in Queensland Institutions.

I have been impressed by the courage of those who came forward, often moved by the hardship they have endured, and saddened that such abuses were somehow permitted to take place. The accounts that I have heard and read have left a lasting impression, and I will never forget them.

For all those who came forward to tell their stories, and to all the victims of abuse in institutions, I dedicate this report to you, and hope that it will be a small step on the long road to healing and reparation.

Might I also add that we could have picked no-one better to conduct this inquiry than the former governor of Queensland, Leneen Forde, whose own commitment to these kinds of issues is well known; I commend her. In the conclusion to her report, Mrs Forde said:

I urge all Queenslanders to contemplate the experiences of children in institutions, how it came to pass that many of them were abused and mistreated, and why it has taken so long for their stories to be told.

[snip]

The abuse took many forms. It was unrestrained in some cases because it was perpetrated on defenceless children who had nowhere to run or hide, nowhere to seek refuge, only to endure in silence year after year. The scars inflicted on their very young minds are indelible, and for that we should all feel a very deep shame.

I was moved by some of the scenes at Parliament House, where the victims were granted permission to finally stop grieving. For some it must have been a rebirth, and their journey towards self-esteem and community acceptance had reached a new stage when the Queensland parliament, through the commission, accepted their stories and the Queensland government gave a commitment to implement the wide ranging recommendations born out of their suffering. Out of their personal tragedies and suffering in their youth;and from living with their nightmares until they could speak of them publicly;some good had finally come to them as adults.

[snip]

Let me add that, because of my own situation and my previous parallel occupation, I feel a deep shame on behalf of the various churches of Queensland that some of that abuse occurred in church run institutions. I do not single out any church in particular, because nearly all of the church run institutions had one case or more of this kind of abuse.

[snip]

But I say to the Queensland government, and even to this chamber: there is still serious unfinished business to attend to concerning the Heiner shredding. The shredding of the Heiner report is part of the reason that this abuse went on for so long without intervention. In that context, the culture of these institutions went unchallenged for all those extra years. The healing then has also taken longer. We owe it to the victims not to regard this report as the end of the matter. (Emphasis added)