Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

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_William Schryver
_Emeritus
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _William Schryver »

Kishkumen wrote:
William Schryver wrote:The hard cold facts are that, whether you like it or not, and despite the fact that my experience with the documents is substantially less than yours, I am still the closest to a peer in these matters that you can find on the planet at this particular moment in time.


I wasn't aware that you had published anything, anywhere. I would be interested in reading what you have published. Could you post a short bibliography of your publications. I would like to see exactly how much of a peer of Brent Metcalfe you are.

Prepared to be informed,

Kish

:lol:

Whoa! I hadn't realized I had missed so much fun in the past day.

A comparison of Metcalfe's scholarship to ................. Einstein's!

Graham waxing apoplectic.

My wife spell-checking my posts.

Oh, my! It really never gets any better than this in the Trailer Park!

It's evolved into a regular circle-jerk "pile on".

I tell you what, Kissassman. As soon as you (or anyone else, for that matter -- make it a team effort if you'd like) posts Metcalfe's bibliography of published articles on Book of Abraham-related issues, I will promptly post my own, remarkably similar, publication history.

:lol:
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Runtu
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Runtu »

Can we agree on a few things?

1. The Book of Abraham does not come from the extant portions of the papyri.

2. The "translations" of the facsimiles do not accurately represent the Egyptian vignettes shown.

3. No document containing both the Hor breathing permit and anything resembling the Book of Abraham has ever been discovered, which would make the Joseph Smith papyri unique.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Droopy
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Droopy »

The Great and Spacious Trailer Park. Second Coming. Eminent Domain.

Get my drift?
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_William Schryver
_Emeritus
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _William Schryver »

Runtu wrote:Can we agree on a few things?

1. The Book of Abraham does not come from the extant portions of the papyri.

2. The "translations" of the facsimiles do not accurately represent the Egyptian vignettes shown.

3. No document containing both the Hor breathing permit and anything resembling the Book of Abraham has ever been discovered, which would make the Joseph Smith papyri unique.

Hey, John, how's it going?

I rolled down my window today and yelled out "hello" as I was passing through Provo. Not sure if you heard me. We spent the morning and early afternoon at Lone Peak HS. Even found time to drive up American Fork Canyon to the Tribble Fork turn off.

You know what? There are way too many people on the Wasatch Front! I was glad to get back down to Santaquin, where I began to breathe again. And now I'm comfortably back home.

Anyway, I agree with #1 and #3. I'm not so sure about #2. In fact, I'm leaning very heavily towards "some other explanation."
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I was perusing my initial Book of Abraham debate with Will from May of 2006, and I can't stop laughing at just how so much has change, while also remaining the same. Will was just as dumb and arrogant then as he is now, all the while pretending to be informed and unbiased.

When I first threw the KEP at him it took him a while to respond because he didn't even know what they were. He kept pulling up Book of Abraham 101 stuff from Nibley and FAIR, trying to lure me into a straw man massacre. And then after I mentioned the KEP for a fourth time, he finally addressed it by saying my "ENTIRE argument rests on the truth of the completeness of the KEP, which is far from a settled question."

This nimrod thought the KEP were the papyri!

:lol:

In fact, I'm leaning very heavily towards "some other explanation."


Of course you are. After three years of ignorant bloviation, you're still looking for a back door way out when your next apologetic gem turns out to be a rhinestone. The fact that you're already preparing for this is telling. The only thing you idiots claim to know for a fact is what your testimonies tell you.

Keep it as complex and mysterious as long as possible. That is the only hope you have in keeping the deception alive and well.
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_Runtu
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Runtu »

William Schryver wrote:Hey, John, how's it going?

I rolled down my window today and yelled out "hello" as I was passing through Provo. Not sure if you heard me. We spent the morning and early afternoon at Lone Peak HS. Even found time to drive up American Fork Canyon to the Tribble Fork turn off.

You know what? There are way too many people on the Wasatch Front! I was glad to get back down to Santaquin, where I began to breathe again. And now I'm comfortably back home.

Anyway, I agree with #1 and #3. I'm not so sure about #2. In fact, I'm leaning very heavily towards "some other explanation."


Life's good here in Provo. I spent most of the day working around the house, so no, I didn't hear you.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Brent Metcalfe
_Emeritus
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Brent Metcalfe »

Hi Will,


William Schryver wrote:
I tell you what, Kissassman. As soon as you (or anyone else, for that matter -- make it a team effort if you'd like) posts Metcalfe's bibliography of published articles on Book of Abraham-related issues, I will promptly post my own, remarkably similar, publication history.



I look forward to examining your bibliography on scriptural exegesis.

And while you're at it, perhaps you could also post Royal Skousen's "bibliography of published articles on Book of Abraham-related issues"—I suspect that it won't take you more than say, zero seconds. In fact, while you're still at it, please share with us Brian Hauglid's publications on BoAbr textual criticism. (Hint: I'm sure it won't take you any longer than it did to type Royal's bibliography.)

Cheers,

</brent>

http://mormonscripturestudies.com
(© 2009 Brent Lee Metcalfe. All rights reserved.)
——————————
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_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

In addition to the two essays at MSS, Brent has published "Joseph Smith's Scriptural Cosmology" and has presented at the Ex-Mormon conference. He has also spent years working on the KEP, including with Edward Ashment, whose essay on the Facsimiles in Sunstone is without peer, and whose work on the KEP led to the proper identification of the scribe of MS 2. Brent has demonstrated his competence on Book of Abraham issues on numerous occasions.

Brent has also established his credentials as a textual and historical critic, as for example in his absolutely groundbreaking essay on Mosiah Priority. That essay was a landmark in the field of Mormon Studies.
_William Schryver
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _William Schryver »

BM:

I look forward to examining your bibliography on scriptural exegesis.

Of course, this is the pronounced difference between the two of us: I’ve never pretended to credentials I lack.

And while you're at it, perhaps you could also post Royal Skousen's "bibliography of published articles on Book of Abraham-related issues"—I suspect that it won't take you more than say, zero seconds.

Of course, Skousen’s credentials aren’t in question here, are they? Skousen’s could have never even heard of the Book of Abraham and still have provided an authoritative analysis of the dittograph, based purely in his demonstrated expertise in textual criticism.

[LOL!]

This has really got you worked up, hasn’t it?! Do you really think you want to get into a vitae pissing contest? And with Skousen of all people?

In fact, while you're still at it, please share with us Brian Hauglid's publications on BoAbr textual criticism. (Hint: I'm sure it won't take you any longer than it did to type Royal's bibliography.)

[As he not-so-subtly attempts to shift the argument to something more favorable to his position.]
As for Hauglid, his publication history on Book of Abraham-related issues is long, varied, and quite impressive on many levels. Simply put, Brian has already assembled a considerable body of work. Though his exposure to the documents is only a fraction of your own (4 years vs. 25+ years), his forthcoming critical edition of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers will represent a bona fide watershed moment in Book of Abraham studies.

So again, do you really want to get into a vitae pissing contest with anyone?

Do you really think that anyone outside the confines of this sad little message board is going to be convinced or impressed?

Speaking of which:
.
.
.
Chris:

In addition to the two essays at MSS …

Do you think perhaps it would be appropriate for you to identify “MSS” to our humble readers?

Yes, that’s correct, “MSS” refers to Metcalfe’s personal website … the one that has been static for over seven years now. It must, of course, in your mind, constitute quite an impressive publishing venue.

… and has presented at the Ex-Mormon conference.

I’m sure that’s a line everyone wishes he could have on his vitae. :lol:

He has also spent years working on the KEP …

How do you know? Where is the evidence of this “years” of work?

Edward Ashment, whose essay on the Facsimiles in Sunstone is without peer, and whose work on the KEP led to the proper identification of the scribe of MS 2.

I can only conclude that this line was deliberately designed to help us understand that Metcalfe has been riding on Ashment’s coattails all these years. Good job, Chris!

Brent has demonstrated his competence on Book of Abraham issues on numerous occasions.

[He writes with, presumably, a serious and sober look on his face.]

You mean on internet message boards, right? Because otherwise, you have demonstrated NOTHING that has “demonstrated his competence on Book of Abraham issues.”

Brent has also established his credentials as a textual and historical critic, as for example in his absolutely groundbreaking essay on Mosiah Priority.

Speaking of Twilight Zone moments …

So, Chirs, let me get this straight: in your world, a single essay on a single question is all that is necessary to establish one’s credentials as a textual and historical critic?

Don’t get me wrong, Metcalfe made a good catch with this finding. But absolutely groundbreaking? Are you really serious?

And sufficient to establish his credentials as a textual and historical critic?

Are you really serious? Really?

That essay was a landmark in the field of Mormon Studies.

[Searching desperately for emoticon that expresses something far beyond “lol”.]

Really? A ”landmark in the field of Mormon Studies”?

Wow! Who knew? (Before now, that is.)

Congratulations, young Christopher, your journey is now complete. You have officialy discarded the robes of the academy in favor of the greasy pen of the propagandist.

“…without peer …’

“…absolutely groundbreaking …”

“…a landmark …”

All I can say is: "Sad."
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Trevor
_Emeritus
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Trevor »

William Schryver wrote:All I can say is: "Sad."


Sigh. I try to stay away, but they keep pulling me back in.

Here we have someone who has "0" publications and how much formal education(?) who sees fit to put the guy who just got into Claremont with funding in his place. Talk about a topsy-turvy world.

Following this thread, I noticed that it was Will Schryver who started this pissing contest. Then, it was Will who needed to manage the terms of the pissing contest so he wouldn't emerge as clearly the least qualified person, using a combination of academic experience and publications as a standard, among the Book of Abraham scholars.

In short, here we have a guy who has no bibliography and no formal credentials (even a BA?) in any of the related subject matter who comes to crow about what idiots Brent and Chris are. All he can do is talk about his future achievements as vetted by a group of guys, who, let's get real here, would have had a very difficult time obtaining tenure at a top research institution.

Someone needs a reality check, and I don't think its Chris or Brent.
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