Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Kevin Graham »

When it comes to formal Book of Abraham-related academic publications, Metcalfe and I are undeniably equals. Nothing on this thread has served to dispute that fact.


But you are clearly inferior to Brent in every sense that matters, especially with respect to an understanding of the KEP. Aside from the fact that you're a glory-seeking idiot who is just trying to ride on the coat-tails of Hauglid and any other BYU professor who shares in your "testimony" of the Church, the fact is Brent has made both Gee and Hauglid look absolutely foolish. Now we learn his scholarship has in the past caused your new favorite "expert" to change his mind as well. Can you make such a boast?

How many times have they been corrected by Brent? Numerous times. And yet how many times have they corrected Brent? Zilch. I'm not even sure they have claimed to disprove anything he has argued. You're the only one dumb enough to do that.

For the record, I did not finish my undergraduate work at the University of Utah, majoring in Middle East Studies with a Hebrew emphasis. My accomplishments were limited to an award as “Middle East Studies Student of the Year” and a scholarship for a semester at Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

I quit early to pursue a lucrative career in software development, in which occupation I remain to this day. (Yes, I admit it: I gave up a possibly respectable career in academia in favor of filthy mammon.)


Uh huh. We know you know nothing of Hebrew, and you probably never attended any college. Brent has been hired by Microsoft and has listed numerous projects that he has been involved with. To achieve what he has without benefit of a degree is far more impressive than doing it with one. You on the other hand, have a penchant for exaggeration and lies. It seems like just yesterday you were an independent filmmaker. Now you claim to be a software developer. But you demonstrate incompetence in the field of computer science. From your pathetic website you tried to start for your "independent film making" business (one which looked like something my five year old threw together with poorly written HTML), to your idiotic comment regarding banned posters being able to circumvent administrator restrictions by unplugging one's router (a post you removed in embarrassment after Liz and I pointed out how idiotic it was), to your ridiculous attempt at video editing for the FAIR conference. At best, you probably got an IT position using the Church employment service, which allows a strong testimony to compensate for mediocre credentials.

I am the only amateur in the world, at present, who possesses high-resolution digital scans of the relevant documents, which I have now had in my possession for almost three years, and to which I have dedicated a concerted amount of study, while in continuous consultation with the team of qualified scholars who have been studying the Kirtland Egyptian Papers for the past four years. Funny how that quite relevant point is always conveniently ignored. Why is that, do you suppose?


First of all, we all know that the only reason you have these photos is because of your overwhelming testimony that nothing could ever convince you Joseph Smith was a fraud. And this is why Hauglid and Gee have them, too. It has nothing to do with a proven ability to interpret them properly or do proper ink analysis or whatever. They can see because they are not a threat. None of these guys are 19th century forensic document experts. And your photos... you rely on scraps from whatever Hauglid sends you. But as a map of the universe in the hands of Forrest Gump is rather meaningless, so are any KEP photos in your possession. You've contributed absolutely NOTHING. I repeat, NOTHING, except more entertainment for critics. The only reason Hauglid is trying to salvage your ridiculous dittograph argument is because that is how badly Book of Abraham apologetics has it right now. They gotta have something to be working on in order to argue their presupposition that these cannot be dictation manuscripts. Gee and Hauglid simply aren't creative enough.

Both of us are in the same category of “amateur” when compared to the bona fide Book of Abraham scholars.


Wrong again. Hands down, Brent is the world's authority at this point. How could he not be? Despite popular myth started by you and your ilk, Brent has consulted with forensic document experts over the years and has not relied strictly an his own understanding. His understanding currently is unsurpassed and nothing your credentialed apologists have done has even compared to Brent's contributions. And stop pretending to have the only "Book of Abraham scholars." What you have are a few scholars in semi-related fields, acting as apologists on a subject they've only recently become familiar with. A subject Brent has known like the back of his hand for decades.

Why do you think he managed to obtain prestigious employment with Microsoft without a degree? Because what really matters is hands on experience. He can get the job done; better than others who have degrees.

Brent has studied these documents for decades and has kept most of his impressive research low-key. By contrast, you've only recently been given under-the-table photos and you're constantly trying to convey to the world your exaggerated sense of self importance. Hauglid even admitted he was very "green" and somewhat out of Brent's league on this subject, and as we all saw on the MAD board, it showed. Hauglid only recently managed to study them and he does so as a side hobby for apologetic purposes.

But hey, Will Schryver says he is "equal" with Brent because neither of them have published on the subject within the academy (As if Gee or Skousen could ever publish their Book of Abraham apologetic anywhere outside Provo). This is like saying you and Stephen Hawking are equals because neither of you have seen a black hole.

To say you are equal with Brent is an insult to Brent and shouldn't be allowed to stand.

Will is letting the past 3 years of protected status in "Pundits" get to his head. That little echo chamber has created a delusion; that he really matters in some way, because very few are able or even interested in refuting him there. He thinks that he is in some kind of scholarly inner loop because he managed to convince some BYU professors that his testimony can withstand the brunt force of reason. I get the sense that it is Will who is constantly nagging at these guys, begging to be included in some way. Every once in a while they toss him a bone and then he runs over to the forums and starts bragging about how important he is. Rather sad for a grown man to act this way.
_Persephone
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Persephone »

Maybe not.
_Trevor
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Trevor »

William Schryver wrote:When it comes to formal Book of Abraham-related academic publications, Metcalfe and I are undeniably equals. Nothing on this thread has served to dispute that fact.


Of course not. You'd like to think so, but the person who has published nothing is not the same as the person who has published something, even when they have both as yet published nothing on the topic at issue. The one who has published has shown that he can publish, and in this case on topics related to the matter at hand. You, who have published nothing on Mormonism whatsoever, are certainly not his peer.

William Schryver wrote:For the record, I did not finish my undergraduate work at the University of Utah, majoring in Middle East Studies with a Hebrew emphasis. My accomplishments were limited to an award as “Middle East Studies Student of the Year” and a scholarship for a semester at Hebrew University in Jerusalem.


So you have published nothing and you have no degree.

William Schryver wrote:You also seem to consistently neglect the other very pertinent point to be made: I am the only amateur in the world, at present, who possesses high-resolution digital scans of the relevant documents, which I have now had in my possession for almost three years, and to which I have dedicated a concerted amount of study, while in continuous consultation with the team of qualified scholars who have been studying the Kirtland Egyptian Papers for the past four years. Funny how that quite relevant point is always conveniently ignored. Why is that, do you suppose?


Because an idiot with a supercomputer and a friendship with Bill Gates doesn't a computer genius make.

William Schryver wrote:An interesting opinion you have of Skousen, Gee, Hauglid, and Hamblin (and the, as yet unnamed, remaining members of the KEP team). I’m doubtful as to its relative weight in academic circles, and I’m persuaded that it is anything but a common opinion among their respective colleagues.


Frankly, you have no basis to express an opinion on this subject. You are ignorant of what is required to meet the qualifications.

William Schryver wrote:Indeed, I have good reason to believe (just to provide a current example) that the British Museum probably felt it had good cause to invite Professor John Gee to speak at its upcoming Egyptology meetings. But hey, what do I know? It could very well be that the scholars at the British Museum are, at best, closet LDS apologists and, at worst, ignorant and inept.


I have been invited to speak at two international conferences in the past two years. Both of them had a very short invite list, and one of them had a program full of the top international scholars in my field. This in no way indicates whether I might have gotten tenure at Harvard or not. You simply don't know what you are talking about. Period.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_William Schryver
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _William Schryver »

Trevor:
You … are certainly not his peer.

… you have no degree …

Frankly, you have no basis to express an opinion on this subject.

You are ignorant of what is required to meet the qualifications.

You simply don't know what you are talking about.

That pretty much sums up the consensus of opinion in this venue.

Who would have predicted that?

In any case, I'm quite content to remain patient ... and confident that time is a much more objective judge of all questions as compared to the denizens of The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Dr. Shades »

William Schryver wrote:In any case, I'm quite content to remain patient ... and confident that time is a much more objective judge of all questions as compared to the denizens of The Great and Spacious Trailer Park™.

So. . . how has time judged you so far?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I'm still laughing because through the past few years Will is still trying to salvage his Abr 1:12 / dittograph arguments. That's all he has. We've addressed them and he even admitted he had no answers to the objections.

He comes here only to attack Brent and myself, while trying to stroke his inflated ego. He attacks Brent because he thinks it increases the credibility of the idiots he rubs elbows with; those same idiots Metcalfe has repeatedly refuted (Gee, Hauglid, Rhodes).

He frequently refers to me as someone who is jealous of his stature in the current debate, as if I was somehow ignored by those on high. Yeah, I was banned from the place where the main "debate" used to be held, because Hauglid was constantly being made the fool. Now he wants to say my absence is a result of my "irrelevance" and that must make me "jealous" of him? These are school yard antics.

The fact is, Brian Hauglid's much anticipated FAIR presentation was for the most part, responses to comments I had made and my "apostasy" over the subject finally put a charge in FAIR's butt to address the subject (so much for irrelevance!). This was unfortunate because it amounted to apologetic and rhetorical fluff. He would have better served his audience had he responded to Metcalfe's detailed arguments. Instead, he flat out lied and said he wasn't even aware of any evidence for dictation!

Hauglid clearly formed his commentary around things I had said. I noticed this on several occasions while watching the video. For example, when he tells his audience, "critics say there is this elephant in the room that is being ignored..." he is clearly referring to my statement to that effect, just a few weeks prior to his talk.

I decided to give the subject a rest until someone publishes a critical text of the KEP for everyone to see. Isn't that patience? Will says I am "painfully aware" of my irrelevance to the "debate." Well, what debate? Every time Hauglid shows glimmers of courage and shows his face at MADB, he eventually backs out from any one on one with Brent. All we get are the occasional mind-jelquing exercises from Will in the "Pundits" area - where he knows he can pretend to be an authority and lecture to a relatively empty forum, till he is blue in the face.

It usually goes like this. He presents a stupid argument, flashes a never before seen clip of the KEP (to remind everyone how relevant he must be if the Church trusts him that much!), edited it to suit his stated agenda, and eventually gets a few cheers from LDS who couldn't make an educated comment about the topic if their lives depended on it. Chris, Brent and myself discuss it over here and Will ends up admitting he doesn't have answers for our objections and bails out. So back to the drawing board for Will. Many months later, there is another repeat of the above scenario. No new evidence, just more bad editing mixed with wishful thinking. All the talk about his arguments being "confirmed" and even "verified" by "experts" is probably nothing more than Hauglid, Gee, Rhodes and Skousen doing their jobs as apologists, and "defending the Kingdom of God."

This nimrod is an admitted college drop out and talks about how he would have had a career in academia? ROFL.

Frankly, I think Will is still pissed off over the initial exchanges he and I had at FAIR a few years ago. I showed he knew far less than I did on the subject, and ever since he has been dying to turn the tables. Unfortunately for him, his stupid arguments aren't doing him any favors.
_JohnStuartMill
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

It's really great how you've handed Schryver his own ass here, Kevin, but why haven't you responded to my posts in the "Commentary" thread of Celestial Forum regarding theism in general?
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Book of Abraham and the Latest Apologetics

Post by _Kevin Graham »

It is hard for me to get back to old discussions on a different topic, especially those that are four months old. I was waiting to get a copy of the book, The Lysenko Effect before responding, which essentially refutes the notion that Lysenkoism proved Stalin was against Darwinism. But getting a copy in Brasil isn't easy.

But I promise to respond... one ass at a time, and Will has seniority.
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