liz3564 wrote:If you are a non member when you die, then you can be taught the gospel and someone can be baptized for you via proxy. Therefore, the nonmembers can basically have their cake and eat it, too.
"ajax18"
Maybe not eternal happiness, but I'm certainly happier ignoring Christian principles in life than I am living them. Christianity does not make me any happier in this life. In fact, it's made my life worse. That's the whole reason I'm concerned with whether it's true or not. Perhaps you disagree or blame me for feeling that way, but to me it's just an observation that I've made about my life. It's just a fact. Now you could argue that people around me are happier when I'm living Christian principles, but not me. There is no gurantee that just because I'm nice other people will return the favor.
My main disagreement when talking with other Christian sects is the idea of being "saved." They believe that once you are saved, it can't be undone. I disagree with this. Once again, every decision counts.
My salvation will be proportional to what I make of it.
Seven wrote:"ajax18"
Maybe not eternal happiness, but I'm certainly happier ignoring Christian principles in life than I am living them. Christianity does not make me any happier in this life. In fact, it's made my life worse. That's the whole reason I'm concerned with whether it's true or not. Perhaps you disagree or blame me for feeling that way, but to me it's just an observation that I've made about my life. It's just a fact. Now you could argue that people around me are happier when I'm living Christian principles, but not me. There is no gurantee that just because I'm nice other people will return the favor.
Hi Ajax, :)
I don't know if I disagree with you, and I don't blame you for feeling this way. I would like to understand better though.....When you say Christian principles, are you referring to the LDS religion?
The Christian principles I love are pretty much in Matthew 5-8. But for me, whether they're good or not hinges on whether Jesus really healed people and really rose from the dead. But yes I do interpret those scriptures different than the baptists or even a lot of Mormons.I personally feel pretty miserable when I do not follow the golden rule. Most of the commandments come back to this one.
I do as well. But couldn't someone argue that I've been conditioned that way. I think people can lie to themselves enough to the point where they don't feel guilt anymore. Psychologically speaking and due to some of my own problems in the past, I'm convinced that we can choose to feel guilt or not feel it. It all depends on what you allow into your mind. Our thoughts truly control our feelings. That's why just feeling guilt in this life or not feeling guilt isn't an ends that would justify the means of having to live the gospel. There must be a future reckoning of some sort.
I probably felt more guilt and distress from the gospel in the MTC than at any other time. Ironically it was also when I was putting the most effort into living the gospel. To me that just didn't add up. Without out my next life fudge factor, it was simply bad math.Can you clarify this statement? Even Mormons believe every person is saved from hell and given some form of glory.
You know this one gets confusing due to differently defined terms. I always heard Mormonism preaching that anything less than the Celestial kingdom was a form of hell and damnation. I don't believe a lot of what I hear in church anymore for the simple fact that most of it is said with the purpose of converting more members. It seemed to me that the Church used to throw more carrots at the rank and file long term members in next world promises, but now it seems to me that they control the rank and file more with guilt sticks, family ties, and threats. Once you get in very deep, it's a lot harder to get out. I remember a Father who was able to bypass all sorts of MTC rules to see his son, take him out, do a lot of stuff, all because he lied to them and told them he was a nonmember. They truly bent over backwards for him.My salvation will be proportional to what I make of it.
I agree. :)
Rob Osborne:
(This is the edited version of my previous post)
Ok, I am gonna stop beating around the bush in some of the past topics I have posted and just nail exactly what i was trying to say quietly.
Endowed members of the church support as part of their higher learning, progression through kingdoms of glory! This may go against some like BRM who said it was an evil or damning doctrine but eternal progression is true! So true, almost every higher learned member don't even realize it while all raise their arm to the square in strong support of it. In the special place where the higher learning is, perhaps contains the most complete and detailed map of the plan of salvation we have. The higher learning teaches us how we are to return back to heavenly Fathers presence.
And as part of this plan, it is made very clear that we will all progress from the spirit world to this earth which is the Telestial Kingdom. From here, as we show our worthiness, we will be allowed to progress into the Terrestrial kingdom where further learning is perfected. Upon completeion of this kingdom and showing our worthiness, we will then be allowed to enter into the Celestial Kingdom and back into HF presence.
Whether or not how one interprets the kingdoms of glory in the special place, the truth of it is- we all must progress through these kingdoms of glory in order to return to our Heavenly Father. There are no shortcuts! Everyone must agree and abide by all the laws of the progressive kingdoms while being part of them in order to progress through them and return back to HF in his heavenly kingdom.
So the question I ask is this- If we support the higher learning as truth, why do we not embrace the revelation and explanation of that progression through the kingdoms as part of the plan of salvation? And, if the higher learning is correct, how come no explanation has come to light to help further explain the true meanings of the thre kingdoms of glory which are made so abundantly clear in the place of higher learning? Is it because of the sacred nature of the special place that we just do not discuss the real truth? I find it just undeniably clear that the higher learning came as partial revelation to help further explain what and why the two lower kingdoms exist and their importance in our own progression back to HF. What I am saying is that we should delve more into the two lower kingdoms because we all must progress through them in order to return to the CK.
Rob Osborne:
Kaimenraider,
What I am suggesting is that we progress through the two lower kingdoms before judgment which comes after the millennium. This is also what the temple teaches. The two lower kingdoms (telestial and terrestrial) are the world as they progress through time until the end of times at judgment. The temple specifies that this earth right now is the very Telestial kingdom/ telestial world and that we ourselves are part of it and must go through it in order to prove ourselves worthy for entrance into the terrestrial kingdom. The terrestrial kingdom begins after the telestial kingdom ends at the start of the millennium. At that point it will be quickened (made alive) by the glory upon which it is quickened. This glory will be that of the presence of Jesus Christ in his glory at that point which will be called the Terrestrial glory. During the reign of the terrestrial kingdom/world, the worthy will inherit this kingdom to further perfect themselves and learn how to live the Celestial law. All alive on the earth during its terrestrial reign will be working on becoming perfected in order to remain on the earth when it is Celestialized and becomes the Celestial kingdom at the end of the millennium. Anyone not able to live up to all of the covenants they have made in the temple will be cast aside at the last judgment. This is what is generally meant in the scriptures about the seperating of the sheep and the goats.
In answer to your inquiry in letter of February 15, 1968 addressed to President David O. McKay I am directed to tell you that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on the point of progression from one kingdom to another after the resurrection. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken an opposite view. But, as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.
--Joseph Anderson, then Secretary to the First Presidency, letter of February 28, 1968.
The endowment ceremony is very much an "official" doctrine of the church, just taught in a different place than church. The higher learning we recieve in the temple clarifies many controversial or grey areas to the plan of salvation that was or is not understood understood from the scriptures. One of the controversial doctrines being the meaning and purpose of the three kingdoms of glory- Celestial ,Terrestrial, Telestial. Where the scriptures left off (D&C section 76-88), the temple picks it back up and explains the true meaning of those kingdoms, where they exist, and most importantly- how each one of those kingdoms of glory is part of our eternal progression. The endowment ceremony content was revealed to Joseph Smith after the content of the doctrine concerning the three kingdoms. The content recieved by Joseph Smith concerning the true relation of three kingdoms was then put in force as official doctrine when the endowment ceremony became accessible to the worthy members of the church in the temple.
The plan of salvation as taught in the temple ceremony has us going "through" the two lower kingdoms of glory in order to enter the Celestial at the end of the ceremony. Before the ceremony wording was shortened to save time, it was explained in the endowment ceremony that the ceremony itself was and is the plan of salvation. This modified plan of salvation explained to us that instead of being assigned to a Telestial, Terrestrial or Celestial world at final judgment, we instead would pass through the Telestial and Terrestrial worlds of glory before being admitted into the Celestial kingdom. Failure to keep any of the laws of the various kingdoms as we progressed through them would deliver us into the hands of Satan (still taught as part of the ceremony).
A mention of what the glory of the kingdoms mean is thus in order- Glory such as "Telestial glory" means that we have upon this earth (telestial kingdom) the presence of the Holy Ghost. The Terrestrial will also have the glory of the presence of the Son Jesus Christ. When the earth is Celestialized it will be given the glory of the fathers presence. this is what glory means. Glory means presence of the godhead. With the presence of these being comes certain blessings also of light and truth. Light and truth also means "glory".
So when we say that a person cannot go from the Telestial kingdom to the terrestrial kingdom and then from that kingdom to the Celestial kingdom we in all reality deny the very plan of salvation as has been revealed in the house of the Lord. And yet, most of the endowed saints do not even realize this doctrine and its truth. We just have not come to recognize ,in my humble opinion, that the plan of salvation as taught in the temple is the most accurate account we have. We also do not recognize that the meaning of the three kingdoms as revealed to Joseph Smith in the D&C needed further explaining which the temple indeed picks up on and completes. Because of this missing connection, our general plan of salvation as taught in church on sundays lacks the most important parts of its saving doctrines.
Just my opinion though.
Okay Rob, if you are going to take that position, then you set yourself up at variance with the Latter-day Prophets and Apostles. Here is what Spencer W. Kimball said:
QUOTE
(Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pg.243-244) "Exaltation in the celestial kingdom will be granted to those only who enter and faithfully observe the covenant of celestial marriage. Christ says in unmistakable terms: In the celestial glory there are three heavens, or degrees;And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase (D&C 131:1-4. Italics added.) He cannot have an increase! He cannot have exaltation! That means worlds without end. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right."
Sounds like President Kimball is pretty plain here, oh you may say he wrote that when he was "only an apostle" and that his teachings here are not part of the standard works, but I say your ideas and teachings are not in harmony with the scriptures, the teachings of the prophets and apostles or the Temple. The endowment is meant to be an "allegory of our lives" and it is intended to reflect only those who keep the covenants made in the Temple while in mortality or the spirit world, during our probationary period. The idea that we can progress between kingdoms after the resurrection is a heresy and is not some "hidden doctrine" that the entire Church and all the Apostles and prophets have somehow missed and you have somehow decerned and understand. You can believe what you will, but when you try to publicly teach it as official doctrine of the Church then you are in error. Just so you will have a second witness I quote the following:
QUOTE
(Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, Pg.144-146) "Full salvation, often called eternal life or exaltation is to be like God, to be a son of God, a joint-heir with Christ, receiving, inheriting, and possessing, as he does, the fulness of the kingdom of the Father. Full damnation, often called eternal damnation, is to be like Lucifer, to be a son of perdition, an inheritor of eternal misery forever in the kingdom of the devil. Between these two extremes are many hues and tones, many degrees and types, of both salvation and damnation. Few men now living will gain eternal life, and fewer still will receive eternal death, meaning eternal spiritual death. In the Father's house are many mansions, many kingdoms, many degrees of glory and honor, many types and kinds of salvation. Jesus "saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." These rebels are damned souls; these traitors become devils, angels to a devil, to dwell forever in misery in his kingdom. "They shall go away into everlasting punishment which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment." They are "the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power" after the resurrection; they are the only ones who shall not be "redeemed" from spiritual death "in the due time of the Lord, [and] after the sufferings of his wrath." (D&C 76:37-44.) As Alma expressed it: "They shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice; and they cannot die seeing there is no more corruption." (Alma 12:18.) There are three kingdoms of glory in which resurrected men will be saved: the celestial, the terrestrial, and the telestial. "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees." The highest of these is reserved for those who gain eternal life. All others are damned in the sense that their progress is limited. There are restrictions placed upon them; they have reached the "end of [their] kingdom"; they "cannot have an increase." (D&C 131:1, 4.) The celestial kingdom is reserved for those who sanctify their souls by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. They are the ones whose sins Christ bore. Because of the atonement, all men, except the sons of perdition, are saved from "death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment." (2 Nephi 9:26.) This salvation takes place when they are resurrected; until that day they suffer with the damned. They are saved from death, meaning the natural death or the death of the body, by the fact of resurrection. They are saved from hell -- from the spirit prison where the souls of the wicked await the day of their resurrection -- when their spirits enter again the physical tenement that once was theirs. They are saved from the devil because he no longer has power over them; they have paid the penalty for their sins, and these sins no longer weigh them down. After much sorrow and misery they are prepared to live as resurrected beings and find their places in one of the lower kingdoms. They are saved from endless torment, for, according to the law of justice, they have paid the penalty for all their evil deeds, and Satan no longer has any claim upon them. As John of old saw in vision: "The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them." There is thus an end to death and hell. "And they were judged every man according to their works." It is this judgment that awards them their place in the kingdoms of glory. "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:13-14.) That is, death and hell and eternal torment remain for the sons of perdition. It is a glorious and wondrous thing to be saved, even in the telestial kingdom; but oh! what a course of sorrow and suffering one must travel to gain this lowest of all glories. "These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work." (D&C 76:103-106.) And yet again: "These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work." (D&C 76:85.) They suffer the second death until the day of their resurrection. They are the ones of whom it is written: "The fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the Sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." They are the ones of whom it is decreed: "They shall not have part in the first resurrection." (D&C 63:17-18.) And when they finally come forth in the resurrection of damnation, their inheritance is not to be compared with that found in a terrestrial or a celestial kingdom."
This explains pretty well the Church's position of the kingdoms of glory. That is all I have to say about it.
Lightbearer,
Let me just say- Although BRM is a great man and had great knowledge of the gospel, his ideas of the meanings of words like "eternal life", "Damnation", "salvation" are his own interpretations without much scriptural backing! One of the best arguments I have regarding my position of section 76 is even backed by BRM flawed approach to the section! Even he says that the inhabitants of verse 103 suffer the second death, only he says that the second death must happen before resurrection. He does this to reconcile why verse 103 speaks of the wicked who suffer in the second death but are not sop either. This is the fault.
The scriptures are very clear that the second death does not even start until all are resurrected and brought before god to be judged-
15 For behold, he surely must die that asalvation may come; yea, it behooveth him and becometh expedient that he bdieth, to bring to pass the cresurrection of the dead, that thereby men may be brought into the dpresence of the Lord.
16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the aresurrection, and bredeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the cfall of Adam being dcut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as edead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.
17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ aredeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.
18 Yea, and it bringeth to pass the condition of repentance, that whosoever repenteth the same is not ahewn down and cast into the fire; but whosoever repenteth not is hewn down and cast into the fire; and there cometh upon them again a bspiritual death, yea, a second death, for they are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness.
(Book of Mormon | Helaman 14:15 - 18)
The first spiritual death lasts until resurrection, not before like BRM thinks. The second death is an everlasting death- one that Christ cannot redeem a soul from! Read the end of Rev 20 and the beginning of Rev 21 through verse 8 where it speaks of final judgment and then the casting of the wicked into the lake of fire and brimstone (second death) and that the ones described in verse 103 of section 76 are found in this predicament. Section 76 even states that the sop are the only ones that the second death has "any" power over. Even a little portion of this second death would classify one as a sop according to verse 37.
BRM interpretation of damnation is also quite flawed. He says that a person can be saved and damned at the same time. That is a huge oxymoron! the two words are exact opposites of each other. If one is saved, he is saved from damnation! If one is damned, he is not saved from that condemnation.
Eternal life according to BRM is exaltation (eternal marrige involved). But the scriptures are quite clear that all of the "saved" recieve eternal life. Even little children are said to have eternal life. There is only one type of salvation and everyone who recieves salvation recieve eternal life.
As for President Kimball- he is entitled to his own opinion just like myself. I disagree with him but still support him as a prophet.
My understanding of progressing through the kingdoms is in fact in total harmony with the temple. My coming to this created world as the temple teaches is not merely allegorical. Neither is this lone and dreary world meant to be allegorical to something else. The temple is quite clear that we come to this earth which is the Telestial kingdom. In stating the temple is allegorical you must judge your own thoughts by these same rules- does this mean that returning to Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom is just allegorical and doesn't really happen?
I guess that I also shouldn't ever teach it is possible to baptize the dead by proxy as that is just allegorical also. Neither should I teach that man can be sealed or married for all eternity either in the temple as it is just allegorical. A person cannot deny that the endowment ceremony requires progression through the kingdoms. Just saying that that part is allegorical is ridiculous. The wording is so plain and so clear that this earth we live on is the very telestial kingdom cannot be mistaken for anything else.
I stand by what I say.
Rob Osborne:
Nothing is more glorious and blessed than the doctrine of families being together forever- it comes straight from God. It is what we teach, what we believe in, and beside it there is no other teaching that is sound doctrine. So then what is the problem?
The problem is that we run around teaching that families can be together and to join the gospel (this is all true and what not) and then also say that most families won't be together forever because they will not choose to accept the gospel and plan. We teach that families will be only for the highest glory in heaven and that most men will not achieve this glory. So we therefore teach a doctrine of families will not be together forever unless you are the elite!
I have issues with this doctrine! How many families do I know who are perfectly happy in this life doing their own thing "with their families". Almost every person on earth takes pride and joy with being with their family. So why then will they be eternally punished away from their families in eternity? Is it a form of scare tactics or just plain wrong doctrine?
I believe the problem stems from the general misconception of heaven and the nature of people in general. Almost every single person when they see the big picture will want to be with their families in eternity. They will do whatever possible to make this happen. Almost every single person who has walked the earth will accept Jesus Christ, his atonement, and the laws and ordinances of the gospel. They will do whatever possible to be joined eternally with their families in heaven.
So why the disconnect? Why do we preach a doctrine that seems so unfair, so untrue, so unlike the basic nature of mankind? If most people aren't going to be with their families, let us teach that doctrine. The reason- it is a false doctrine. I have long championed the idea and truth of "family salvation". This means that if one is saved from hell, they are saved into their family unit in heaven- otherwise why the importance of the family sealing in the temples? There will be no such thing as a person being saved outside of their families in heaven.
Let us truly teach that families can be together forever through the plan of salvation from hell.
I have long contemplated the appeal of the eternal family. The great blessings that come from that belief. It is a centered part of our doctrine and belief. In reality, it is the motivating force in our lives to do good. The gospel of Jesus Christ is thegood news that we can be together as family units forever. The crowning achievment in the church is an eternal marriage.
I had one brother in church tell me that he might just as well go to hell if he couldn't be with his family in eternity. I totally believe this. So where does this put the vast crowds of humanity? Will the greater portions of the peoples of the earth be without their families in eternity? Our doctrine almost seems to hint at it. But is it really true? I think we trap ourselves into thinking that most people will just not "make the grade" or "pass the test" that will entitle them to be eternally bound in eternity. We also fall into the trap of thinking that they just won't want to be part of families in eternity. And even, we think that perhaps they will want to be with their families but because they didn't accept the gospel in a timely fashion they forfeitt their right to their families in eternity.
I personally think that all of our notions about those things are rather harsh and false. Why don;t we just take peoples families away from them right now if they aren't gonna be together in the hereafter? I mean really, why let them continue to build positive relationships with each other if we are just gonna rip them apart later?
Personally i believe that salvation and the eternal family are synonymous. I believe it to be utterly impossible to be saved and not be saved into the loving arms of your spouse and family. I believe that one of the whole purposes for being saved, is to continue to build on those family relationships in eternity. I mean really, why repent and do good if you can't be with the ones you love?
Take them lonely terrestrials for instance- We teach that although they will fully repent and accept the gospel in the spirit world, they can never be with their families in eternity- they will live separately and singly forever! That to me is one of the perhaps worst unfounded damning doctrines that could possibly exist in my book! It is a teaching of man and not of God. The whole purpose of accepting the gospel is to be with the ones we love inside of family relationships.
What is life without a family?
HELL!!!
I should've clarified one of the main points of the discussion in which I failed to do so. Here it is-
Both Christ and John in Revelations (amongst countless other prophets) speak of "heaven" as being in one physical place- specifically, on this earth after the millennium is over and the earth becomes Celestialized. Christ in all of his teachings never speak of another sphere or place where the "saved" go. They are always saved to the same place. In Revelations (which I believe is true) John speaks of the Holy City of the Living God (the Father) coming down out of heaven and to the earth. Once established, the earth attains it's Celestial splendor. Inside the city is where both the Father and the Son dwell. Also in the city resides the tree of life. The city has twelve gates representing the twelve tribes of Israel. The names of the saved are written upon the gates of the city and in the book of life. So here is where it gets interesting-
John, along with Christ, spell it out quite clearly that if you are not part of this Celestial society then you are the dogs and whoremongers outside of the city gates- outside of the book of life- name not written therin. Christ taught his gospel that everyone who wants saved inside of this city (kingdom of God), must be obedient and be baptized by one having authority. If one does not do this then they have no right to enter the gate into the city as their name will not be found written in the book of life. So they will then be the dogs and whoremongers outside of the city walls- the very devils and angels to the devils!
Perhaps then the situation needs to be looked at in a different light. If the only way to be saved is to be cleansed of ones sins through proper baptism, then the exclusive club really exists, only now it includes everyone excepting the sons of perdition as they are the only ones who would remain unforgiven of their trespasses and sins by not showing obedience to divine command.
If this be the case, then the saved all go to the exclusive country club and are members while only the sop are excluded. This to me sounds more true to be the case. It seems to make more sense that all of the saved go to the same sphere rather than three different worlds. Think about it- there is only one thing that keeps us from the Fathers presence- sin! If sin is fully forgiven through the atonement to the repentant, then all the repentant souls from the beginning of time will all have exclusive passes to the Kingdom of god (celestial kingdom).
Heres the logic of it,from a Mormon perspective-
Heaven, or the Kingdom of Heaven as designated from LDS scripture is the actual physical world/place where both God the father and his Son Jesus Christ dwell. Notice how the designation includes both people as is correct with scripture. LDS scripture does not speak of a separate heavenly realm where the saved go but where only one personage dwells. Once in the Celestial Kingdom, the son Jesus Christ will reign there in that kingdom to go no more out. He will not be the God or presiding personage and dwell in a lesser kingdom at that point. He will however reign in the Terrestrial Kingdom. But that doesn't make sense doeis it? Sound like a contradiction?
He is able and will reign personally "the whole time" on the Terrestrial world. There is no contradiction however with him reigning in both the Terrestrial and Celestial Kingdom as they will not exist at the same time. Both the Temple and scripture teach that the earth in it's progression will procede from the Telestial kingdom (the lone and dreary world we now live in) to the Terrestrial Kingdom during the millennium and then finally to the Celestial Kingdom after the millennium is over. Because both the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms will have an end in their existance, there will be no need For Christ to visit some lesser kingdom in eternity like we typically think in LDS thought. The scriptures are very clear that once Christ enters the Celestial Kingdom and is crowned with his glory that he will reside in "that kingdom" and not a lesser throughout eternity.
So in all reality John in Revelations picture of Heaven is spot on in depicting only "one heaven" (one sphere/ world) where "all" of the saved go. One question I have for fellow LDS is this- How do we know that the Telestial & Terrestrial Kingdoms are really nothing more than what the temple describes them as being- namely the temporary stages of the mortal earth before it is Celestialized? If we are not sure, then how can we be so sure that those same kingdoms as is spoken of in section 76 may be eternal in their nature and duration?
The verses 100-112 describe every single individual that has ever walked the face of the earth. The worst ones described are those starting in verse 102 where it states that "last of all". This group carried through verse 106 describe the unjust individuals- the very sons of perdition. Note that they are not redeemed (resurrected) until "after" Christ has perfected the work his father gave him to do and has presented the kingdom spotless before the father. If one comes forth in the resurrection of the unjust, they are not justified in overcoming their spiritual fall through the atonement. They remain in that spiritually fallen condition at judgment because of their refusal to repent. This is definately not the group that Christ saves.
Next in verses 109-112 it switches over from the ungodly to the glorious and righteous individuals. These individuals described are you and me types of people. We are the ones who bow the knee and accept Christ we are the saved! Verses 111 and 112 are kind of confusing under first light but when properly explained they make perfect sense. For one reason or another verse 111 describes all of the righteous at judgment who will recieve a reward. This reward is immortality and eternal life in that mansion-
6 And if thou art faithful unto the end thou shalt have a crown of immortality, and eternal life in the mansions which I have prepared in the house of my Father.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 81:6)
Verse 112 for one reason or another, is a revertion of what describes our status here on earth. The righteous here on this earth are servents to god. Where Christ and God dwell (worlds without end) we cannot go while we are here on this earth serving god. This is where Joseph Smith does not recognize that the telestial world he is viewing is our own earth right now. It is true that no mortal man will ever be able to go where God dwells as long as he is on this earth even though he is righteous.
The general approach to these verses makes no sense at all- if we take this to mean a future kingdom after resurrection. Taking this approach we find that they are righteous individuals who are judged off of their good works (works of ordinances) and receive a reward in the kingdom of heaven (mansion of god is referring to a place in his very kingdom) and then suddenly in the next verse we find that the place in Gods kingdom they get is actually outside of that very kingdom. That makes no sense whatsoever! If a person is not where God and Christ dwell, they are not in the same kingdom. This is where other explanatory scriptures come into play-
33 Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.
35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 15:33 - 35)
Here it explains that the final state of all mankind is to either dwell in the kingdom of god where he "dwells" or to be cast out into the kingdom of the devil.
Also- if Christ saves a person he saves them into his very kingdom where he himself and the father dwell that is why scriptures like these make sense-
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.
38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 11:37 - 40)
74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father's kingdom where my Father and I am.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 84:74)
To keep thinking along the general lines of the telestial being a future kingdom, wouldn't it be strange that such a large amount of people will not return to live where god and Christ dwell? What a bad plan! the plan of salvation (the one and only plan of salvation!) is the plan that allows men to return to live in the direct presence of the Father and Son in the Celestial kingdom. Under this plan, men become free from satan and can return to HF to live with him in the mansions which are prepared.
I guess one needs to do an active search on what the mansions are in the kingdom of god.
Families can be Together Forever..........Problem is however most won't be, or so we teach: