Missionary Chat

[_Ray A]

None other then B.H. Roberts once did it to a couple of missionaries - and they nearly ended up losing their testimonies.

Hey Ray. I'm interested in finding out more about this incident. Can you recall where you read it?

Dwight, it's in Truman Madsen's Defender of the Faith: The B. H. Roberts Story, (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1980), If I recall correctly. Not sure which page as I no longer own the book.

There's also a New Era article about Roberts doing this, written by my late good friend, Max Nolan. Roberts did this more than once, but on this occasion one of the recipients of his scheme was one J. Golden Kimball:

New Era 1985.

Elder Kimball’s introductory meeting with President Roberts was a memorable one, providing him and his companions with a missionary challenge from an unexpected direction.

“The first time I ever saw Elder Roberts was either in Cincinnati or St. Louis. He had been chosen as president of the Southern States Mission to succeed John Morgan. I left for Chattanooga, Tennessee, with twenty-seven elders assigned to the Southern States. There were all kinds of elders in the company—farmers, cowboys, few educated—a pretty hard-looking crowd, and I was one of that kind. The elders preached, and talked, and sang, and advertised loudly their calling as preachers. I kept still for once in my life; I hardly opened my mouth. I saw a gentleman on the train. I can visualize that man now. I didn’t know who he was. He knew we were a band of Mormon elders. The elders soon commenced a discussion and argument with the stranger, and before he got through they were in grave doubt about their message of salvation. He gave them a training that they never forgot. That man proved to be President B. H. Roberts” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1933, p. 42).

[_Dwight Frye]

Thanks, Ray. I posted my discussion with Ofa on my Facebook page for s***s and gigs, and I'm being raked over the coals by my TBM friends for misrepresenting myself. I look forward to sharing this B.H. Roberts anecdote with them. Again, thanks.

[_Pokatator]

Thanks, Ray. I posted my discussion with Ofa on my Facebook page for sh!ts and gigs, and I'm being raked over the coals by my TBM friends for misrepresenting myself. I look forward to sharing this B.H. Roberts anecdote with them. Again, thanks.

I really need to do this. It looks like fun and it could lower my "trustworthy" number on Justin's blog.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Ray:

Are you aware of any Mopologetic attempt to spin or whitewash such anecdotes?

[_Dwight Frye]

Here's the most comprehensive TBM response to my Facebook posting of the above conversation. All the other TBM's more or less just echo the points in this comment or just give me that old "you've-left-the-Church-but-can't-leave-it-alone" song and dance.

Anyway, if any zingers, points, trivia, quips, insults, jokes or anything else clever that I can use to make this fun reading for those following along occurs to you while reading this, please don't hesitate.

If not, I don't need your freakin help anyway.

While I do protest this girl's lack of knowledge and unwillingness to respond to questions, it does concern me a bit that you are harassing missionaries. They are just here to do the best job they can and work hard. While not all of their knowledge is on the same level as yours, I don't understand the need to seek out situations like this to insult their faith. Some people just don't have the same issues as you, EJ, and just because you have problems with this stuff doesn't mean everyone does. I can CERTAINLY understand and support you in discussing these things when asked your opinion about it or even on the discussion boards where people are going to debate. This conversation is really just rude though. Posting it on your profile, even more so. Sorry, bud, but I felt I had to share.

[_bcspace]

Thanks for sharing this rather sad exchange.

What is really interesting to me is that the missionary recommended FAIR.

Neither sad nor interesting. The missionaries are looking for people who are ready to believe and be baptised, hence the narrow line of reasoning.

[_JohnStuartMill]

Here's the most comprehensive TBM response to my Facebook posting of the above conversation. All the other TBM's more or less just echo the points in this comment or just give me that old "you've-left-the-Church-but-can't-leave-it-alone" song and dance.

Anyway, if any zingers, points, trivia, quips, insults, jokes or anything else clever that I can use to make this fun reading for those following along occurs to you while reading this, please don't hesitate.

If not, I don't need your freakin help anyway.

While I do protest this girl's lack of knowledge and unwillingness to respond to questions, it does concern me a bit that you are harassing missionaries. They are just here to do the best job they can and work hard. While not all of their knowledge is on the same level as yours, I don't understand the need to seek out situations like this to insult their faith. Some people just don't have the same issues as you, EJ, and just because you have problems with this stuff doesn't mean everyone does. I can CERTAINLY understand and support you in discussing these things when asked your opinion about it or even on the discussion boards where people are going to debate. This conversation is really just rude though. Posting it on your profile, even more so. Sorry, bud, but I felt I had to share.

How does ensuring that representatives of a faith understand basic aspects of its history equal "harassing missionaries"? That TBM needs to stop expecting people to treat her religion with kid gloves.

[_Pokatator]

Thanks for sharing this rather sad exchange.

What is really interesting to me is that the missionary recommended FAIR.

Neither sad nor interesting. The missionaries are looking for people who are ready to believe and be baptised, hence the narrow line of reasoning.

Milk, no toast yet alone meat. You're wrong bc, it is sad, it's even skim milk at best.

[_Ray A]

Are you aware of any Mopologetic attempt to spin or whitewash such anecdotes?

No Scratch, in fact they have used this idiosyncracy of Roberts' (he did it more than once) to show that he could be a "devil's advocate" when he wanted (as in his Studies of the Book of Mormon). He apparently derived a sense of satisfaction in showing believers just how weak their faith might be, thereby hoping to spur them on in the quest for more knowledge, and to move beyond what he called "disciples pure and simple" (testimony bearers and "repeaters").

[_Doctor Scratch]

Are you aware of any Mopologetic attempt to spin or whitewash such anecdotes?

No Scratch, in fact they have used this idiosyncracy of Roberts' (he did it more than once) to show that he could be a "devil's advocate" when he wanted (as in his Studies of the Book of Mormon). He apparently derived a sense of satisfaction in showing believers just how weak their faith might be, thereby hoping to spur them on in the quest for more knowledge, and to move beyond what he called "disciples pure and simple" (testimony bearers and "repeaters").

Right---I wasn't aware of any Mopologetic spin-jobs, either. And this is an oddity (and flaw, as far as I'm concerned) in apologetics. There is no room for this sort of thing in modern Mopologetics. I could pretty easily label myself a "Devil's Advocate" of a sort, but do you think that the apologists would be trying to defend me, and my status as some kind of important Mormon? There is no way in hell.

That said, I'm curious: Do you feel that any of the apologists attempt to fill this same sort of role---i.e., really challenging people's testimonies? Frankly, I think that if Roberts were alive today, he would have been ex'ed by the BKP faction of GAs.