Latter-day Saints Behind US Torture?

[_Doctor Scratch]

I noticed this thanks to a somewhat lengthy thread on the aptly named MADboard. I didn't wind up reading the entire MADthread, but found it very interesting that some high-ranking Mormons were neck-deep in the US torture policies under Bush:

http://blogs.sltrib.com/slcrawler/2009/ ... -mafia.htm

It turns out that an LDS Judge (Jay Bybee) was responsible for penning a crucial memo that helped to justify the torture of prisoners. Perhaps even more troublesome is the fact that a pair of LDS psychologists help to cook up what has been dubbed the "Clockwork Orange" method of interrogation. I suppose it's helpful to remember what gay BYU students had to endure back during the sick, Mengele-esque "experiements." What's interesting about these LDS psychologists is the way that Mopologetic-like logic and hubris were used to justify the ethically dubious interrogation methods:

The former adviser to the intelligence community said, “Clearly, some senior people felt they needed a theory to justify what they were doing. You can’t just say, ‘We want to do what Egypt’s doing.’ When the lawyers asked what their basis was, they could say, ‘We have Ph.D.s who have these theories.’

Does this sound familiar?

[_Gadianton]

LOL! Yes, it does sound familiar. It sounds exactly like the apologists. In fact, one has to wonder if any apologists were consulted on this matter. I can imagine it, "Doctor ____, we have this problem. We need to do something, something everyone knows is wrong. We have some arguments -- rather hollow arguments -- to justify it, but I'm afraid we might need something more."

"Yes, we know the situation well. Actually, you don't really need anything more. The arguments you have will do fine. You only need to show concern if you are challenged. In that event, just ask everyone if they have a phd in psychology and if they don't, tell them they aren't qualified to have an opinion."

[_Dr. Shades]

‘We have Ph.D.s who have these theories.’

Oh geez. So it goes with the Book of Abraham; so it goes with U.S. torture.

[_moksha]

If only we had the missing six feet of transcripts, we could have a clearer understanding of how waterboarding was merely a variation of trying to baptize without full immersion.

[_Gadianton]

I just read through some of the responses, oh man, this is rough.

Personally, I think it's a huge joke

(Joseph Smith could have been joking about Zelph!)

(quotes some obscure, incoherent verse from the Old Testament supposidly justifying immorality)

((quotes some obscure, incoherent verse from the Old Testament supposidly justifying immorality))

There was no torture in the sense of breaking bones, cutting, pulling out teeth or fingernails

(There is no proof Joseph had sex with all those young girls, it wasn't marriage in the sense of...)[/quote]

The Bush administration explained these issues to the Congressional intelligence committees, which approved the policies. There were, of course Democrats on these committees.

(The Bible isn't perfect either and has lots of problems too...)

6- Water-boarding was stopped in 2006 by the Bush administration.

(Polygamy is no longer tolerated, a stop was put to it by a revelation from God to his prophet, can't we just let the past be the past?)

Torture is often something in the eye of the beholder

[_bcspace]

It turns out that an LDS Judge (Jay Bybee) was responsible for penning a crucial memo that helped to justify the torture of prisoners.

A hero who saved lives.

[_Yoda]

(There is no proof Joseph had sex with all those young girls, it wasn't marriage in the sense of...)

Thanks for the chuckle, Gad! I literally laughed out loud when I read this little gem of a comparison.

[_Doctor Scratch]

I felt, after receiving Dr. Robbers's invaluable peer review, that it would be worthwhile to post a link to the aptly named MADthread in question:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... =0&start=0

I have to say, when I first read the thread title, I thought I would be in for a series of dogpile posts in which the apologists all ridiculed the notion of "Mormon Mafia" as anti-Mormon paranoia. Instead, I found that I was treated to a re-application of apologetics! How provocative! Look, for instance, at this response from Lance "Confidential Informant" Starr:

This most likely refers to Judge Jay Bybee of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. He is LDS and previously worked in Chief Counsel's office for Pres. Bush. It appears that he authored a memo that stated that some of the harsher "interrogation techniques" were legal and pemissible. The libs in congress are up in arms about the whole thing right now, and some have called for him to be impeached from the circuit and others have said he should step down.

Personally, I think it's a huge joke. Legal memo is an expression of opinion, nothing more. It has no authoritative or precedential value at all. It's basically a "here's what I think based on my reading of the law" type of thing.

Funny thing is, I haven't seen anyone say that his legal analysis was wrong.

Ah, yes. And originalist interpretations of the constitutional legality of slavery and racism are...what? Not wrong? Great argument, C.I.

I mentioned this on a separate thread, but it is so classic that it is worth re-mentioning here:

I don't have a problem with torture or the threat of torture in a crisis situation where the stakes are incredibly high. I do object to the extended torture we practice. It almost constitutes murder. It's psychologically damaging and destroys people in many cases permanently. I think it would be more merciful to just execute them.

The following makes me sincerely regret not having fully read the thread before my OP. I'm sure Solzhenitsyn would be weeping:

I have a contact at the CIA. I phoned him and talked to him about this situation. He confirmed the following:

1- There was no torture in the sense of breaking bones, cutting, pulling out teeth or fingernails, burning, beating, electric shock, eye gouging, disjointing, etc.

Wow. My head is reeling already. "a contact in at the CIA"??? That is the first sphincter-loosener. The next oddity is the fact that Bill Hamblin felt it necessary to "phone" this individual regarding this issue! Does the Maxwell Institute have a Red Batman Phone ready to phone the CIA in precisely these kinds of instances?

2- The harshest technique was water-boarding. This was done to only three people, who were in possession of information about immediate threats to the US. From these interrogations intelligence was obtained that permitted the US to stop planned terror attacks in the LA Tower. If they hadn't obtained this information it is possible the LA Tower plot could have succeeded and thousands of US citizens would have died.

"LA Tower"? How good is this "intel," I wonder? (I assume he means 'Library Tower', or the USBank Tower.) Further, did the released memos not say that some of these suspects were waterboarded over 100 times?

3- Most enhanced interrogation is an attempt to break the person psychologically. The general types of things done include sleep deprivation, constant loud music, lights on all night (sounds like the average college Frat house), forcing them to stand for hours, etc. Physicians are always present during enhanced interrogations. Enhanced interrogation is useful only when used on a specific individual who has specific knowledge (i.e. What day to you plan to attack? Who is the contact in LA?). It is not valuable for "fishing" expeditions (i.e "Do you have any terrorists in Paris? Are there al-Qaeda agents in Iraq?).

Ah, right. Of course. "Yes, it may be torture, but look how benign it is." I think the larger question is: Would Bill Hamblin have bothered to phone his friend if there was no LDS connection? Further, how many "college Frat" houses do you think Bill Hamblin had been inside?

4- All US Special Forces go through SERE (Survive, Evade, Resist, Escape) training, which includes being water-boarded, and undergoing all the other enhanced interrogation techniques, so they learn to resist such techniques. 40,000 US soldiers have had this training since WWII. Now that the Obama administration has revealed the limits of enhanced interrogation techniques, they are basically useless. Terrorist organizations will water-board their own people so they know what it is and how to resist it.

Of course. Certainly, nobody knew anything whatsoever about waterboarding prior to the Obama administration.

5- The Bush administration explained these issues to the Congressional intelligence committees, which approved the policies. There were, of course Democrats on these committees.

In the majority?

6- Water-boarding was stopped in 2006 by the Bush administration.

This post has been edited by Bill Hamblin: Apr 23 2009, 01:52 PM

Gee, why the need to edit, Prof. Hamblin? I have to say, I am blown away by the blase attitude expressed in his post. Prof. Hamblin should volunteer himself to be subjected to the "Clockwork Orange" techniques. Let's see how well his allegiance to Mopologetics holds up after that. After all, these procedures are "an attempt to break the person psychologically". So, no big deal, right?

Later on in the thread, Hamblin exults in the fact that C. Hitchens was waterboarded:

Christopher Hitchens was water-boarded. Here's the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58

It's a bit narcissistic and melodramatic, but you can see what it is.

Has Hamblin allowed himself to be waterboarded? Given what a pus-body he is, I would have to guess, "No."

In the end, the TBM/Mopologetic reaction to all of this seems to fall into two modalities:

1. "Waterboarding is not that big of a deal."
2. A complete avoidance of the apparent fact that LDS psychologists helped to cook up the "Clockword Orange" techniques.

[_rcrocket]

Not that I endorsed Bybee as a judge or endorsed his memo; I don't and I don't.

However, not a single Democrat questioned him at his confirmation hearing. It was an outrage.

[_bcspace]

However, not a single Democrat questioned him at his confirmation hearing. It was an outrage.

And now it's a double-standard which is what one expects from democrats anyway.