Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

[_bcspace]

Did Christ teach.....plural marriage?

Yes. 2 Samuel 12:7-12 (Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.....). Jacob 2:30, etc.

......practice plural marriage?

Don't know. Maybe. John 21:25

Your biggest problem here is going to be the Biblical pattern that is prophets are called of God to teach the doctrine (Amos 3:7 etc.). Therefore, it is unreasonable to think that Christ's words in the scriptures are the only words of God.

[_Inconceivable]

Since plural marriage is seen to be God authorized at various times in the scriptures, including the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:30) it is major proof that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.

If one is going to claim the Biblical restoration of all things, it must include plural marriage.

BC, own the entire Old Testament. Inspired JST version and all.

Declare it to be the mind and will of a loving and almighty God.

And then, after reading the whole thing for the first time. Give your declaration a second thought.

[_William Schryver]

That's what I initially said, Will. I have the book too, and I didn't recall any proof of Rigdon being involved in polygamy. But it's easy to slip on things like this, even for writers. Especially in regard to footnotes.

While agreeing with you that there is no "proof" of Rigdon introducing a "System of Wifery" in Antrim, PA in 1846, I also see no appreciable difference between the allegations against Sidney Rigdon in this case and the hostile witnesses who would have us believe Joseph Smith consummated his sealings to already-married women.

Do you? If so, in what respect?

[_Ray A]

Yes. 2 Samuel 12:7-12 (Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.....). Jacob 2:30, etc.

Then presumably Christ also inspired 1 Sam. 15?

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Lemme guess, you'd say yes.

And conveniently ignore the rest of Jacob 2.

[_Inconceivable]

Or is an opinion only valid in the Mormon church if it has a penis attached to it?

Yet another example of the sex obsessed criticism of the Church.

This is a reference to gender, BC.

I think you're attempting to bang a round peg into a square hole.

[_Inconceivable]

Will?

[_bcspace]

Yet another example of the sex obsessed criticism of the Church.

This is a reference to gender, BC.

I know. But couching it in those terms shows the sexual obession.

I think you're attempting to bang a round peg into a square hole.

Homosexual?


And I think you're intentionally being sexually obsessive.

[_Brackite]

Is polygamy. This is the one "doctrine" that marks Joseph Smith, in my opinion, as a probable imposter. It is not only contrary to societal values, but even to common sense. And according to the Book of Mormon, it is "an abomination". Why? Because it is manipulative, abusive and controlling, even when "consent" is given (bear Emma in mind here, and her "choices"). All I can say is that if the founder of Mormonism really did produce this book, the Book of Mormon, then he had a serious case of schizophrenia.

Since plural marriage is seen to be God authorized at various times in the scriptures, including the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:30) it is major proof that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.

If one is going to claim the Biblical restoration of all things, it must include plural marriage.

Hello There,

Here we go again, bcspace:

There is absolutely NO Evidence whatsoever, that the Phrase, 'raise up seed unto me', in Jacob 2:30, refers to that the Lord God will command His People to enter into the Practice of Polygamy. The Lord God intends to command His People to marry Monogamously, in order to be able to raise up a righteous seed unto Him. This is really meaning raising up righteous children, righteous sons and daughters, unto the Lord God. It can and will be done through the Practice of Monogamy. The Lord God intends to raise up a righteous seed unto Him, through Monogamy, (NOT Polygamy), as can be clearly seen when correctly comparing Jacob 2:30 to 1 Nephi 7:1, and then correctly comparing 1 Nephi 7:1 to 1 Nephi 16:7-8.

Here is Jacob 2:30, Compared to 1 Nephi 7:1:

Jacob 2:30:

[30] For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.


1 Nephi 7:1:

[1] And now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.

Here is Now 1 Nephi 7:1, Compared to 1 Nephi 16:7-8:

1 Nephi 7:1:

[1] And now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.


1 Nephi 16:7-8:

[7] And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.

[8] And thus my father had fulfilled all the commandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.

Nephi and his brethren took just one wife each, in order to be able to raise up seed unto the Lord God.
Nephi and his brethren did fulfill the Commandment of the Lord God, with them just taking one wife each, in order to be able to raise up righteous seed unto the Lord God.
A Righteous Man is able to raise up a righteous seed unto the Lord God, with having just one righteous wife.

[_William Schryver]

Indecipherable:

Ask your wife (if you have one) what she really thinks of the possibility of you demonstrating your most sacred intimatacies with someone who, historically, will be as beautiful and younger as she used to be.

She says she must confess that everyone deserves “the best.”

Ask any unmarried Mormon woman if she is at peace not being a first wife?

This is not a problem if you play it right. You just convince them ALL that they’re the first wife.

Ask your wife how she would feel about you dating young women on Thursday nights?

Date night is Friday.

Ask her how she feels about giving your daughter to a hairy old man in his fifties. A man who regularly has sex with over 40 women. A man that will die soon and leave her an insignificant #41 used wife, broke and with fatherless children. Ask her how she feels about losing her elligibility as an eternal first wife to a younger man in this life.

Foul.

False dilemma.

How will your daughter feel about being passed around at the age of 22 to the next old hairy man that is about to die?

Foul.

False dilemma.

Ask your daughter how she feels about spending her wedding night with this experienced filthy old hairy man.

Foul.

False dilemma.

[_Kevin Graham]

I also see no appreciable difference between the allegations against Sidney Rigdon in this case and the hostile witnesses who would have us believe Joseph Smith consummated his sealings to already-married women.

That's because you're an idiot. Common sense and hostility can hardly be confused.

- Faithful Mormon Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed." (Affidavit of Melissa Willes, 3 Aug. 1893, Temple Lot case, 98, 105; Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 156.)

- In a court affidavit, faithful Mormon Joseph Noble wrote that Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman. (Temple Lot Case, 427)

- Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. (Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)

In total, 13 faithful latter-day saint women who were married to Joseph Smith swore court affidavits that they had sexual relations with him.

- Joseph Smith's personal secretary records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated.- William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)

- Smith's secretary William Clayton also recorded a visit to young Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843: "Prest. Joseph and I went to B[enjamin] F. Johnsons to sleep." Johnson himself later noted that on this visit Smith stayed with Almera "as man and wife" and "occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the previous month he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge as his wife." Almera Johnson also confirmed her secret marriage to Joseph Smith: "I lived with the prophet Joseph as his wife and he visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F." (Zimmerman, I Knew the Prophets, 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)

- Faithful Mormon and Stake President Angus Cannon told Joseph Smith's son: "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked [Eliza R. Snow] the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that."" (Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.)

- Stake President Angus Cannon also testified: "I will now refer you to one case where it was said by the girl's grandmother that your father [Joseph Smith] has a daughter born of a plural wife. The girl's grandmother was Mother Sessions . . . She was the grand-daughter of Mother Sessions. That girl, I believe, is living today, in Bountiful, north of this city. I heard prest. Young, a short time before his death, refer to the report . . . The woman is now said to have a family of children, and I think she is still living." (Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 25-26, LDS archives.)

- Faithful Mormon and wife of Joseph Smith, Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith. Josephine testified: "She (Sylvia) then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church." (Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915)

- In her testimony given at a Brigham Young University devotional, Faithful Mormon Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner stated that she knew of children born to Smith's plural wives: "I know he [Joseph Smith] had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." (Read her full BYU testimony here: http://www.ldshistory.net/pc/merlbyu.htm)

- Faithful Mormon Prescindia D. Huntington, who was Normal Buell's wife and simultaneously a "plural wife" of the Prophet Joseph Smith, said that she did not know whether her husband Norman "or the Prophet was the father of her son, Oliver." And a glance at a photo of Oliver shows a strong resemblance to Emma Smith's boys.
(Mary Ettie V. Smith, "Fifteen Years Among the Mormons", page 34; also Fawn Brodie "No Man Knows My History" pages 301-302, 437-39)

- Researchers have tentatively identified eight children that Joseph Smith may have had by his plural wives. Besides Josephine Fisher (b. Feb. 8, 1844) and Oliver Buell, named as possible children of Joseph Smith by his plural wives are John R. Hancock (b. Apr. 19, 1841), George A. Lightner (b. Mar. 12, 1842), Orson W. Hyde (b. Nov. 9, 1843), Frank H. Hyde (b. Jan 23, 1845), Moroni Pratt (b. Dec. 7, 1844), and Zebulon Jacobs (b. Jan 2, 1842). ("Mormon Polygamy: A History" by LDS Historian Richard S. Van Wagoner, pages 44, 48- 49n3.)

There is another piece of evidence you might consider in examining Joseph Smith's sexual behavior. The following excerpt is from a love letter Joseph Smith wrote when he wanted to arrange a liaison with Newel K. Whitney's daughter Sarah Ann, whom Smith had secretly "married." It reveals Smith's cloak-and-dagger approach to his extramarital affairs:

"... the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty. ... Only be careful to escape observation, as much as possible, I know it is a heroick undertakeing; but so much the greater friendship, and the more Joy, when I see you I will tell you all my plans, I cannot write them on paper, burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts, my life depends upon it. ... I close my letter, I think Emma wont come tonight if she don't, don't fail to come to night, I subscribe myself your most obedient, and affectionate, companion, and friend. Joseph Smith." - Joseph Smith Handwritten Letter, http://www.xmission.com/~research/family/strange.htm

from - http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm