Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

[_dblagent007]

He was a guy who slept with his teenage ward/maid and invented a revelation to cover his bare butt.

That was how Oliver viewed it. However, Ann Eliza Young, as an apostate, had a different take on it. She said that it was clear to Fanny and her parents that Fanny was married to Joseph Smith.

Bushman did a good job of acknowledging Oliver's take and then explaining why he thought it wasn't correct. I don't like what Joseph Smith did with Fanny, but I think the evidence cuts in favor of him being spiritually married to her before he started any intimate relations.

[_William Schryver]

He was a guy who slept with his teenage ward/maid and invented a revelation to cover his bare butt.

That was how Oliver viewed it. However, Ann Eliza Young, as an apostate, had a different take on it. She said that it was clear to Fanny and her parents that Fanny was married to Joseph Smith.

Bushman did a good job of acknowledging Oliver's take and then explaining why he thought it wasn't correct. I don't like what Joseph Smith did with Fanny, but I think the evidence cuts in favor of him being spiritually married to her before he started any intimate relations.

Don't trouble these people with the facts.

[_rcrocket]

However, Ann Eliza Young, as an apostate, had a different take on it. She said that it was clear to Fanny and her parents that Fanny was married to Joseph Smith.

That's an interesting take on it, considering that Ann Eliza was born in the same year that Joseph Smith was murdered. She must have been watching from the preexistence, no?

Have you read her book? I have it. She writes about a lot of things with which she has no clue -- just repeating gossip.

[Guest]

Fine, Kissassman.

In other words, Schryver admits he is wrong.

Now produce other examples where a woman was threatened with negative consequences for not entering into plural marriage.

The idea of the "key turning against" those who did not enter into plural marriage when the Lord commanded it appears in several different contexts. It is not my job to do your homework for you. You are clearly incorrect when you ignorantly opine:

You know next to nothing about these things, except the major exmormon talking points.

And:

Did I mention that you are a freakish cartoon character?

Says the man who uses a hieroglyph with breast implants as his avatar. Right.

[_Fionn]

I want to see a reference for this claim. Who was threatened with losing their eternal salvation if they did not submit to being a plural wife?

And just a hint: the experience of Helen Mar Kimball will not help your cause. She was promised something, but she was never threatened with losing something. There is a profound difference.

And furthermore, her experience was very unique. I am aware of no other similar examples during the pioneer era. Take Amelia Folsom, for instance. Was she coerced into becoming Brigham Young's wife, despite a huge age difference between the two? Was she coerced into remaining with him? What about Ann Eliza Webb?

It never ceases to amaze me how you people can be so willfully ignorant of the facts when it comes to these things.

While I was speculating based on the absolute of "all", loss of the CK is implicit in Mormon doctrine at the time. One had to participate in the principle in order to attain the highest level of the CK. At least according to BY.

You can say that for modern Mormons, BY was merely speaking as a man, but at the time, he spoke to the Saints as their prophet. Men had to embrace and participate in the principle in order to gain that reward. In order to do so, they needed women to also participate. Women may not have been threatened with loss themselves of celestial glory, but the implication is that without their participation, the men would lose their celestial glory. That's a heavy burden of guilt to place on anyone.

I don't have references for women having their salvation threatened if they refused to obey and go along with polygamy. Oh, except for Emma. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Emma threatened by god, via her husband, with destruction if she did not embrace polygamy?

[_Yoda]

He was a guy who slept with his teenage ward/maid and invented a revelation to cover his bare butt.

That was how Oliver viewed it. However, Ann Eliza Young, as an apostate, had a different take on it. She said that it was clear to Fanny and her parents that Fanny was married to Joseph Smith.

Bushman did a good job of acknowledging Oliver's take and then explaining why he thought it wasn't correct. I don't like what Joseph Smith did with Fanny, but I think the evidence cuts in favor of him being spiritually married to her before he started any intimate relations.

How? What is your evidence?

[_William Schryver]

However, Ann Eliza Young, as an apostate, had a different take on it. She said that it was clear to Fanny and her parents that Fanny was married to Joseph Smith.

That's an interesting take on it, considering that Ann Eliza was born in the same year that Joseph Smith was murdered. She must have been watching from the preexistence, no?

Have you read her book? I have it. She writes about a lot of things with which she has no clue -- just repeating gossip.

Of course, Ann Eliza was just repeating the stories she had heard in her family. But her father Chauncey was a contemporary witness to what went on between Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith. Among all the stories Ann Eliza promiscuously repeats, this is one of the more credible items, especially because of her proximity to the original source and because it tends to defend Mormonism rather than attack it, when she was manifestly in the business of attacking it in the context of the book in question.

[Anonymous]

I don't have references for women having their salvation threatened if they refused to obey and go along with polygamy. Oh, except for Emma. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Emma threatened by god, via her husband, with destruction if she did not embrace polygamy?

There were many women threatened with losing salvation. It's right in the LDS canon.

Lets start with Emma:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

All women who do not obey the command of plural marriage are damned and destroyed. Destroyed in this context meant to lose their exaltation. (and have their characters slandered )

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood [plural marriage required for exaltation], as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take aHagar to wife.

In other words, if your husband asks for your consent to take a plural wife, you will lose your exaltation (in Mormon belief that is salvation) if you refuse her. The husband is then no longer required to have your consent and is exempt from that law of Sarah and can take the new wife with God's sanction. The consent law did not give the woman any power to prevent their husband from taking a new wife.

So this works out quite nicely for Joseph's shenanigans. He could lie and deceive Emma about the marriages with God's approval because she had refused to consent in living the law that was revealed to her. No matter what Joseph did wrong, there was always a scripture in section 132 to bail him out. Even taking other mens wives.

[_dblagent007]

That was how Oliver viewed it. However, Ann Eliza Young, as an apostate, had a different take on it. She said that it was clear to Fanny and her parents that Fanny was married to Joseph Smith.

Bushman did a good job of acknowledging Oliver's take and then explaining why he thought it wasn't correct. I don't like what Joseph Smith did with Fanny, but I think the evidence cuts in favor of him being spiritually married to her before he started any intimate relations.

How? What is your evidence?[/quote]
Bushman covers it in the Fanny Alger section of RSR. I don't have it on me at the moment, but I will try to recall what I can.

The primary evidence in favor of Joseph Smith being married to Fanny comes from Ann Eliza Webb Young. After Fanny was kicked out by Emma, she went to live with the Webbs, Ann's parents. Here is what Ann wrote about it:

The worthy couple—the Prophet and his scribe— were sorely perplexed what to do with the girl, since Emma refused decidedly to allow her to remain in her house; but after some consultation, my mother offered to take her until she could be sent to her relatives. Although her parents were living, they considered it the highest honor to have their daughter adopted into the Prophet’s family, and her mother has always claimed that she was sealed to Joseph at that time.

http://www.mazeministry.com/Mormonism/1 ... chap03.pdf

Bushman, may have cited other evidence, but I can't recall those sources.

[_Jason Bourne]

Did Christ teach.....plural marriage?

Yes. 2 Samuel 12:7-12 (Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.....). Jacob 2:30, etc.

......practice plural marriage?

Don't know. Maybe. John 21:25

Your biggest problem here is going to be the Biblical pattern that is prophets are called of God to teach the doctrine (Amos 3:7 etc.). Therefore, it is unreasonable to think that Christ's words in the scriptures are the only words of God.

The Bible has absolutely nothing like LDS Plural marriage. It seems more God tolerated a bad culture practice. BC please show me in the Bible where Polygamy is in fact commanded, taught as marriage for eternity and also as a requirement for exaltation.