Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

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_dblagent007
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _dblagent007 »

rcrocket wrote:Have you read her book? I have it. She writes about a lot of things with which she has no clue -- just repeating gossip.

Yes, or most of it. I lost interest towards the last few chapters.

Rest of comment deleted. Will already responded above.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_ktallamigo
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _ktallamigo »

I want to see a reference for this claim. Who was threatened with losing their eternal salvation if they did not submit to being a plural wife?



Emma
D & C 132

(Oh.. guess I should have finished the thread before adding this. :redface: But -- you can't beat the D&C as a reference!)
"Brigham said the day would come when thousands would be made Eunuchs in order for them to be saved in the kingdom of God." (Wilford Woodruff's Diary, June 2, 1857, Vol. 5, pages 54-55)
_dblagent007
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _dblagent007 »

rcrocket wrote:Have you read her book? I have it. She writes about a lot of things with which she has no clue -- just repeating gossip.

The thing I found most fascinating about her book is her interpretation of Section 132. Obviously, it was not favorable to Joseph Smith, but interesting nonetheless.
_why me
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _why me »

Miss Taken wrote:Why me, I don't think you are entirely correct over your opinion of Sidney. According to his grandson, it was a 'family secret' that he helped to 'get up' the Book of Mormon.


Now Miss Taken, I know about the grandson but Sidney's son tops Sidney's grandson. According to the son, sidney denied writing the Book of Mormon on his deathbed.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _why me »

Inconceivable wrote:
Why me, you have no knowledge. And I think you're as smart and informed as you'll ever be.

Ahhh...but I got a high rating on the blogspot. I was quite pleased with my high score. What score did you get?? :neutral:
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Seven
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _Seven »

"rcrocket" Have you read her book? I have it. She writes about a lot of things with which she has no clue -- just repeating gossip.


dblagent007
Yes, or most of it. I lost interest towards the last few chapters.



I've read her book and I slightly agree with rcrocket but I would never say she had no clue. That would be like saying Carolyn Jessop has no clue about the FDLS religion that she escaped. I found Ann's book to have a sensational tone at times but also very harrowing in her first hand account. She recounts memories from her childhood and experiences as a plural wife so it's not going to be a book for percise historical details. But it was never intended to be that anyway. She wrote the book to expose Brigham Young and the horrors of living plural marriage to help the women escape. Her book parallels many of the women who escape the FLDS today and try to help others leave.
It's obvious she had very negative feelings about her exhusband Brigham Young and hated polygamy, but she didn't ever claim the restoration of the church or Book of Mormon was fraudulent that I recall.


What I find interesting about Ann Eliza Webb is how apologists discredit her autobiography as gossip and anti Mormon lies, but use her testimony to prove Joseph didn't have an affair with Fanny. Which is it?





The most problematic part of Joseph's "marriage" to Fanny is that entering plural marriage required the very strict law of using the Priesthood sealing keys. Section 132 makes that clear.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can creject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, boaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.



Joseph didn't receive the keys to practice the New and Everlasting covenant of marriage until 1836.

In 1836 Joseph Smith received, in the Kirtland Temple, additional fundamental priesthood keys. These priesthood powers included the keys of the gathering of Israel, the keys of the gospel of Abraham, and the keys of the sealing power, each set of powers restored personally by Moses, Elias, and Elijah. (See D&C 110.) At other times, additional keys and powers of the priesthood were also restored. (See D&C 128:21.) These included the keys of the kingdom pertaining to the dispensation of the fulness of times, keys that have subsequently passed to Joseph Smith’s successors, including President Ezra Taft Benson today. (See D&C 90:1–5.)


The roll in the hay with Fanny Alger happened in 1833, years before he was given the sealing keys.

Fanny Alger is Joseph's first known plural wife, whom he came to know in Kirtland during early 1833 when she, at the age of 16, stayed at his home as a housemaid. Described as "a varry nice & Comly young woman," according to Benjamin Johnson, Fanny lived with the Smith family from 1833 to 1836.

Martin Harris, one of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon, recalled that the prophet's "servant girl" claimed he had made "improper proposals to her, which created quite a talk amongst the people." Mormon Fanny Brewer similarly reported "much excitement against the Prophet…[involving] an unlawful intercourse between himself and a young orphan girl residing in his family and under his protection."
Former Mormon apostle William McLellin later wrote that Emma Smith substantiated the Smith-Alger affair. According to McLellin, Emma was searching for her husband and Alger one evening when through a crack in the barn door she saw "him and Fanny in the barn together alone" on the hay mow. McLellin, in a letter to one of Smith's sons, added that the ensuing confrontation between Emma and her husband grew so heated that Rigdon, Frederick G. Williams, and Oliver Cowdery had to mediate the situation. After Emma related what she had witnessed, Smith, according to McLellin, "confessed humbly, and begged forgiveness. Emma and all forgave him." While Oliver Cowdery may have forgiven his cousin Joseph Smith, he did not forget the incident. Three years later, when provoked by the prophet, Cowdery countered by calling the Fanny Alger episode "a dirty, nasty, filthy affair."

Chauncey Webb [Ann Eliza's father] recounts Emma’s later discovery of the relationship: “Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house”.

SOURCE: Richard S. Van Wagoner, Sidney Rigdon, p.291

At least one account indicates that Fanny became pregnant. Chauncy G. Webb, Smith's grammar teacher, later reported that when the pregnancy became evident, Emma Smith drove Fanny from her home (Wyl 1886, 57). Webb's daughter, Ann Eliza Webb Young, a divorced wife of Brigham Young, remembered that Fanny was taken into the Webb home on a temporary basis (Young 1876, 66-67). Fanny stayed with relatives in nearby Mayfield until about the time Joseph fled Kirtland for Missouri.

Fanny left Kirtland in September 1836 with her family. Though she married non-Mormon Solomon Custer on 16 November 183614 and was living in Dublin City, Indiana, far from Kirtland, her name still raised eyebrows. Fanny Brewer, a Mormon visitor to Kirtland in 1837, observed "much excitement against the Prophet … [involving] an unlawful intercourse between himself and a young orphan girl residing in his family and under his protection" (Parkin 1966, 174).

SOURCE: Richard S. Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy, p.8
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _why me »

harmony wrote:
Indeed, Joseph showed no interest in polygamy at all... until he took Fanny to bed.

Never forget Fanny, why me. She is the reason for the revelation, and anyone who knows the history knows that.

Fanny did just fine. She never spoke badly of Joseph Smith. And years later when asked about the relationship by her brother to Joseph Smith after Joseph Smith was murdered she replied: 'That is all a matter of my---own. I have nothing to communicate'. She bore nine children with her husband.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _why me »

harmony wrote:
why me wrote:But really in the past it meant nothing for most people.


Your ignorance of LDS history is appalling. "Most" people not only didn't know about it, the leaders who were all in on it went to great lengths to keep it under wraps, including destroying the printing press.

All converts heard of polyamy in Utah and most heard about Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages. No problem at all.


That is pure nonsense. Very very few people knew about Joseph's extramartial activities. He went to great lengths to ensure privacy for his adultery.

The revelation was revealed in Utah in 1852, 5 years after the Saints entered the Salt Lake valley, and thousands of miles from anyone who would or could support members who wanted to opt out. It was never revealed prior to that time to the general membership.

The only way to escape polygamy after 1852 was to be dead, broke, or ugly.

I was referring to latter day Mormons in the 1970's. As I said, I learned about LDS polygamy in history class and it meant nothing to me. What I did think at the time was that they were living their religion and their religion allowed for polygamy. I was not thinking that the leaders of the Mormons had huge libidos. For most Mormons at that time in the 1970's or in the 1980's, there was no concern about polygamy.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _why me »

harmony wrote:
why me wrote: He as not a horndog but just a guy who was found in a strange situation and he coped with it as best as he could.


He was a guy who slept with his teenage ward/maid and invented a revelation to cover his bare butt.

Don't try to make it something it's not, whyme. Remember Fanny.

I dealt with fanny already. That is your interpretation and it would be the wrong one. Joseph Smith was not ugly. He could have gotten sex anytime he wanted. He did not need to invent plural marriage to get some action. Also, there would be no logic to risk his reputation and power base by inventing plural marriage to have sex.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _why me »

Fionn wrote:
why me wrote:It does not seem that the plural wives of Joseph Smith were unduly harmed by their experience. When Joseph Smith died all went there own way not exactly sharing their experience but with no regrets either. I think that that says much about plural marriage during Joseph Smith's time.


If by "went there (sic) own way" you mean several were passed along to Joseph's inner circle, then you would be correct. My g-g-g-grandfather, Heber C. Kimball, ended up married to several of Joseph's widows and at least one of Hyrum's.

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/ ... esults.asp

Look particularly at marriages made in Hancock County Illinois between 1844-1845.

This was prior to the westward trek, so these women didn't need "help and protection" as widows crossing the plains. They were being passed along like the chattel they were considered to be. They didn't have children by Joseph, so there were no fatherless children needing protection.


Your use of words shows utter bias. I think that the women did just fine. Was it difficult. Sure. But they knew that it was from god and felt the pressence of the spirit. You should be proud of your relative.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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