Danna wrote:This nails it all right. If JSjr marrying Fanny was doctrinally acceptable, then the restoration of the keys is not. Or vice versa. They cannot both make sense doctrinally as each discredits the legitimacy of the other.
My guess is that Joseph just said a quick prayer, which included the words, "Lord join us in matrimony", and then "proceeded". Then along come "apologists" trying to justify it. With "God's authority" Joseph could do anything. He "saw God" in 1820, and "God" overrides ALL civil law.
On the plus side, the argument contained therein is accepted by nearly every philosopher, regardless of whether they believe in God, whose professional work relates to the subject. When you try to deflect any moral criticism of your assertions about God by appealing to his moral judgment being beyond your ken, that has certain consequences. One, it goes both ways. You are no more in a position to judge a command good if you are incapable of appreciating God's "frame of reference" than you are evil. Two, any command from God is morally arbitrary from our point of view since we cannot appreciate its moral basis or lackthereof. Three, you cannot predict what God will do based upon being allegedly good, since the content of "good" given God's frame of reference could mean anything. All you are left with is "Whatever God says, goes." But that's no more helpful or justified than saying, "Whatever EA says, goes." That includes everything from giving alms to the poor to raping babies for fun.
You could, instead, try to argue that you have lots of prior reason to believe God is filled with benevolent wisdom, so sometimes God might order something you can trust is good but you do not understand. The catch there is that anytime you are presented with something that appears ostensibly evil, you have to acknowledge that this weighs against whatever reason you think you have to believe God is benevolent. You can't just wave your hand dismissively and claim you already know God to be good. You appear not to be interested in that. I can't blame you, as your religion is filled with claims that describe a rather malevolent deity.
On the plus side, this debate about Joseph Smith's sex life is as old as Death Valley. Therein is the problem of engaging in this useless debate. It has come to my attention that the MDb is obsessed with Joseph's sex life, attempting to find something unrighteous in his sexual habits in order to persuade themselves that Josesph was just a man with a libido problem.
On the negative side, this argument depending on the perversion of the poster's mind, can make a case that Joseph was some sort of pervert. For after all, we are now into several decades from his passing and from the passing of his sealed wives. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on the level of perversion inside the posters mind, none of these people can voice an opinion because they are long dead.
However, it does seem to me that the women involved in the sealings had nothing at all bad to say about Joseph even though many went on to live normal lives marrying and having children. Ummmm....I do believe that this says much behind the sealings.
Therefore, one can not just wave his or her hand and dismiss the possibility that these sealings were done in righteousness with the approval of a benevolent God. For in the end, God is all knowing and will not be mocked.
Now, of course, if god is good and if Joseph had the will of god on his side when he was sealed to women, often with the knowledge of the women's family, I can assert that the claims made on this thread by the poster's with the more perverted minds may just be in the wrong.
However, since I am an open minded person and at times enjoy some perversion every now and then from the posters on this thread, I think that it is perfectly fine to let out some steam and have these kind of threads every now and then. Thank you good sir, for your attention in this matter.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Danna wrote:This nails it all right. If JSjr marrying Fanny was doctrinally acceptable, then the restoration of the keys is not. Or vice versa. They cannot both make sense doctrinally as each discredits the legitimacy of the other.
My guess is that Joseph just said a quick prayer, which included the words, "Lord join us in matrimony", and then "proceeded". Then along come "apologists" trying to justify it. With "God's authority" Joseph could do anything. He "saw God" in 1820, and "God" overrides ALL civil law.
Unfortunately Ray, we do not have any such testimony from the women involved. It seems that these women /and how he treated the women he was sealed to/ had a great deal of respect for him. This was not looked upon by these women as some legal means to have sex with Joseph Smith. If it were the case we would have indictments of his behavior by these women but it seems that such indictments do not exist. All to my recollection were genuinely sad when he was murdered and these women were sealed to Joseph Smith because of kinship in the afterlife.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote: Unfortunately Ray, we do not have any such testimony from the women involved. It seems that these women /and how he treated the women he was sealed to/ had a great deal of respect for him. This was not looked upon by these women as some legal means to have sex with Joseph Smith. If it were the case we would have indictments of his behavior by these women but it seems that such indictments do not exist. All to my recollection were genuinely sad when he was murdered and these women were sealed to Joseph Smith because of kinship in the afterlife.
You don't seem very experienced with life, nor Joseph Smith, with this comment, why me. But I'm led to believe that you should be at least as old as I am? Why would they "report" Joseph? He was charisma and seduction combined. Almost everyone who encountered him said he had a "magnetic" personality, which can actually be kind of scary, but grant such a person enormous control over individuals. Do you think that "accomplices" in sexual misbehaviour, like Fanny, would have gone to Emma and said, "your husband is a cheater"? Get real.
You still haven't answered my question as to how many books on polygamy you've read. And I'd also ask if you agree with Compton's conclusions about 19th century Mormon polygamy. My impression is that you have a very rough and rudimentary, and pathetically apologetic approach to something you have little understanding of. My guess is that you've read next to nothing about some of the intense emotional pain some of these women suffered, "in the name of God".
From the Wives of Joseph Smith, not the most prolds sites: Louisa Beaman first met Joseph Smith in 1834 when Joseph and several missionaries stayed in the Beaman home in Avon, New York. Louisa’s sister, Mary, remembered the visit: “His society I prized, his conversation was meat and drink to me”. One of the missionaries, Parley P. Pratt, also noted the stay: “Among those whose hospitality we shared in that vicinity was old father Beeman and his amiable and interesting family. He was a good singer, and so were his three daughters; we were much edified and comforted in their society...”.
The Beaman family joined the church and moved to Kirtland, Ohio in 1835. While there, Louisa’s father died at the age of 62. Amid church dissention in Kirtland, Louisa, and her Mother, Sarah, made the trip to Missouri and then finally to Nauvoo. Shortly after arriving in Nauvoo, Louisa’s Mother also died, most likely of malaria, which was rampant. Louisa moved in with her sister Mary and brother-in-law, Joseph Bates Noble.
In the fall of 1840 Joseph Smith taught Joseph Bates Noble, “the principle of celestial marriage or plural marriage”, which Joseph said was given by revelation. Joseph then asked Noble to perform a marriage ceremony between himself and twenty-five-year-old Louisa. Smith also warned, “In revealing this to you, I have placed my life in your hands, therefore do not in an evil hour betray me to my enemies...”
For many years, Louisa Beaman was widely recognized as the first plural wife of Joseph Smith. In 1851, the city now known as Parowan, Utah was christened Fort “Louisa”. According to John D. Lee, this was, “ in honor of the first Woman who listened to the light & voice of Revelation - & yielded obedience to the Seal of the covenant...for this noble act, her Name is held in honorable rememberance in the History of the Saints”.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote:Louisa Beaman first met Joseph Smith in 1834 when Joseph and several missionaries stayed in the Beaman home in Avon, New York. Louisa’s sister, Mary, remembered the visit: “His society I prized, his conversation was meat and drink to me”. One of the missionaries, Parley P. Pratt, also noted the stay: “Among those whose hospitality we shared in that vicinity was old father Beeman and his amiable and interesting family. He was a good singer, and so were his three daughters; we were much edified and comforted in their society...”.
The Beaman family joined the church and moved to Kirtland, Ohio in 1835. While there, Louisa’s father died at the age of 62. Amid church dissention in Kirtland, Louisa, and her Mother, Sarah, made the trip to Missouri and then finally to Nauvoo. Shortly after arriving in Nauvoo, Louisa’s Mother also died, most likely of malaria, which was rampant. Louisa moved in with her sister Mary and brother-in-law, Joseph Bates Noble.
In the fall of 1840 Joseph Smith taught Joseph Bates Noble, “the principle of celestial marriage or plural marriage”, which Joseph said was given by revelation. Joseph then asked Noble to perform a marriage ceremony between himself and twenty-five-year-old Louisa. Smith also warned, “In revealing this to you, I have placed my life in your hands, therefore do not in an evil hour betray me to my enemies...”
For many years, Louisa Beaman was widely recognized as the first plural wife of Joseph Smith. In 1851, the city now known as Parowan, Utah was christened Fort “Louisa”. According to John D. Lee, this was, “ in honor of the first Woman who listened to the light & voice of Revelation - & yielded obedience to the Seal of the covenant...for this noble act, her Name is held in honorable rememberance in the History of the Saints”.
As “Acting Associate Justice” in Nauvoo, George her husband) presided over the city council meeting on June 10, 1844 when the claims of the dissenting newspaper, the “Nauvoo Expositor” were discussed. The minutes of the meeting record: “Alderman Harris spoke from the chair, and expressed his feelings that the press ought to be demolished.”. The city council passed a resolution that directed the destruction of the press. Joseph Smith was soon arrested for abetting this destruction and was later killed in Carthage on June 27th.
Joseph’s body was returned to Nauvoo. B.W. Richmond, a visiting journalist, unaware of Joseph and Lucinda’s relationship, wrote, “[Mrs. Harris was] standing at the head of Joseph Smith’s body, her face covered, and her whole frame convulsed with weeping.”
Interesting to be sure. Doesn't seem like ill treatment to me.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote: All to my recollection were genuinely sad when he was murdered and these women were sealed to Joseph Smith because of kinship in the afterlife.
"Kinship" in the afterlife??? You mean there will be no sex in the afterlife? According to Mormon doctrine? It will all be "platonic"?
Many years later, her marriage to Joseph Smith still shrouded in secrecy, Agnes wrote to her nephew, Joseph F. Smith: “I acknowledge none greater...than those that belong to the household of Joseph our Dear Dear Dear departed one Joseph...I could say many things to you...that I know and that has been told me by those that are dead and gone but perhaps you would not believe me no I know that you would not so it is best for me to keep silent”.
Maybe her last sentence need apply to this thead
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote: All to my recollection were genuinely sad when he was murdered and these women were sealed to Joseph Smith because of kinship in the afterlife.
"Kinship" in the afterlife??? You mean there will be no sex in the afterlife? According to Mormon doctrine? It will all be "platonic"?
You can't be serious.
Read the statement by Agnes Coolbirth Smith Above. She belongs to the household of Joseph.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
