Apologetics and the Use of Torture

[_Gadianton]

why are you so obsessed with the topic of "masturbation" BC? I, and others here, are discussing an important subject with far reaching implications for our society and times. Take your off-topic excuse to talk about sex to another thread. This thread is for mature, politically concerned adults.

[_Gadianton]

What really gets me at the moment is listening to horribly naïve utilitarian justifications for torture practices by people who criticize utilitarianism as untenable because they think it entails these exact sort of horribly naïve arguments to chew people up as a means to some greater good.

Absolutely, EA. I don't think you have forgotten how this bothers me as well. DCP is the archtype of this contradiction. How many times has he argued simultaneously that non-believers can only ground morals in their tastes and preferences but then goes on to argue that life is meaningless without the resurrection/eternal personal consequences?

[_bcspace]

why are you so obsessed with the topic of "masturbation" BC?

I'm simply speaking the language of the anti LDS critic.

I, and others here, are discussing an important subject with far reaching implications for our society and times. Take your off-topic excuse to talk about sex to another thread. This thread is for mature, politically concerned adults.

My analogy is quite on topic. Does the comparison with your logic hurt so much? Then I think I shall continue as is.

Your opinion that the torture approving apologist would also approve of brainwashing is exactly the same logic as those who believe masturbation causes homosexuality or that flies are spontaneously created out of mud. I'll pick whatever illustration I choose.

[_Gadianton]

That it takes a "black sheep" apologist that virtually none of the other important apologists can stomach to get a clear repudiation of the use of torture.

Why would anyone want such a thing? On what moral basis, that you believe in, should any and all torture be repudiated?

1) This thread stands independent of my views on torture. All I've argued is that apologists seem to believe very strongly in torture, and as Doctor Scratch points out, the naturally following principles of brainwashing.

2) One might want such a thing because if one were rcrocket, and strongly opposed torture, one might be very upset to find the truth being revealed that as you agree, Mormons, and especially Mormon apologists, believe in torture.

3) My repudiation of any and all torture is beyond the scope of this thread. Suffice it to say, I repudiate it. And suffice it to say, I am happy with any apologist repudiating it without a detailed explanation.

[_harmony]

1) This thread stands independent of my views on torture. All I've argued is that apologists seem to believe very strongly in torture, and as Doctor Scratch points out, the naturally following principles of brainwashing.

2) One might want such a thing because if one were rcrocket, and strongly opposed torture, one might be very upset to find the truth being revealed that as you agree, Mormons, and especially Mormon apologists, believe in torture.

3) My repudiation of any and all torture is beyond the scope of this thread. Suffice it to say, I repudiate it. And suffice it to say, I am happy with any apologist repudiating it without a detailed explanation.

Why would anyone care what apologists say? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask what the Brethren say?

[_rcrocket]

"He by choice accepted the penalty in behalf of all mankind for the sum total of all wickedness and depravity; for brutality, immorality, perversion, and corruption; for addiction; for the killings and torture and terror—for all of it that ever had been or all that ever would be enacted upon this earth." Boyd K. Packer, "Who is Jesus Christ?" (Pamphlet, LDS Church, undated).

Torture was seen as a great evil when used against the Jews in the Macabean revolt. (2 Macc 6:18-31.)

It may be that members of the Church on a public board see nothing wrong with torture as an acceptable tool for the war against terror. I suppose that they would also say, perhaps, that rape is an acceptable tool of torture to use against women informants? Or pulling the fingernails out of teenagers who could be informants? Or torturing children in front of parents who could be informants? I mean, why not? If you accept torture, then sure you aren't much into moral line-drawing, are you?

It is time for Christians to stand for something; to draw the line against war and its means.

[_Yong Xi]

"
It is time for Christians to stand for something; to draw the line against war and its means.

Christians can't prevent war.

[_moksha]

Yes, the Church was against WWII:

Torture is evil and those who endorse it are the same.

Bob, those were great quotes, but is there one that comes right out and says we condemn the use of torture? The reason I ask is that when the Church refused to sign that religious resolution along with the other Churches in Salt Lake City, back when this issue arose in the Iraq War, many of the apologists of the FAIR board said there were equivalent statements already in place that were equal to signing the resolution. Other FAIRboarders thought that torture constituted an effective means of obtaining information and so therefore torturers should not be hindered in using torture as a means of rending information or confessions from their clients.

Almost all other topics are worthy of be stated and restated umpteen times, but apparently not regarding torture. That is why I am wondering exactly how specific the Church has gotten in their condemnation or even tacit approval of torture. Is this viewed as a moral issue of at least an equivalent concern as say for instance, masturbation? Specific condemnations against masturbation can be readily be referenced and quoted.

I would like to proudly point to such a statement in future discussions.

[_moksha]

"
It is time for Christians to stand for something; to draw the line against war and its means.

Christians can't prevent war.

But they can go on record in opposition to war as many times as it takes. In the past 40 years, at least in this country, Christianity as a whole has appeared to give its blessing to our aggressions.

Excellent point Bob.

[_Ray A]

Torture? Here's "Wheat":

As far as Heber C. Kimball's proposed solution to pressing social problems _ sounds good to me. Hang a few gays, prostitutes, child molesters, defrauders, and the like in the public square, and before too long you'll have produced a much more hospitable environment for making and raising families.

Start with the apostates ... Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:37 pm

I think I’m a 100% orthodox chapel Mormon in almost every way I can imagine. And the folks I have known in the various wards and stakes I’ve lived in are, with some exceptions, pretty much just like me. Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:27 pm.

Torture is mild. It's more like murder on the mind.