Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

[_Brackite]

Nor is the practice condemned in the New Testament. True, "one" in Greek means "one" and not "a" in the verses you cite. But God knows how to say "only" one, as he did many times. But, Paul didn't say "only one." Hardly a condemnation. So, I'm looking for that condemnation. It isn't there. Instead, you see the greatest of men in God's eyes with multiple wives and concubines (the latter, of equal status in all regards except for real property).

Here is First Timothy Chapter Three, Verses One though Three, From The New King James Version of the Bible:

1 Timothy 3:1-3: (NKJV):

Qualifications of Overseers

1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a] he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;

Here is Part, From a Bible Commentary On First Timothy, Chapter Three, Verse Two:

[b] b. Husband of one wife: The idea here is of “A one-woman man.” It is not that a leader must be married (if so, then both Jesus and Paul could not be spiritual leaders in our churches). Nor is the idea that leader could never remarry if his wife had passed away or was Biblically divorced. The idea is that is love and affection and heart is given to one woman, and that being his lawful and wedded wife.



i. This means that the Biblical leader is not a playboy, an adulterer, a flirt, and does not show romantic or sexual interest in other women, including the depictions or images of women in pornography.

( http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/5403.htm )




Now, Here is First Timothy Chapter Three, Verses One though Three, From The New International Version of the Bible:

1 Timothy 3:1-3: (New International Version):

Overseers and Deacons

1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

A Christian Leader is Not allowed to have more than one wife.

[_beastie]

On the polygamy question (Beastie I guess I'm a copy cat too, because all through Why me's posts I'm thinking....David Koresh....David Koresh) nothing made me so uncomfortable about Joseph Smith than studying the life and practice of Vernon Wayne Howell.

The other obvious example is Wayne Bent, who also broke off from the seventh-day adventists. I watched a documentary about this fellow, and was particularly struck by his son, Jeff Bent. One of Wayne's "revelations" was that he was supposed to have a sexual relationship with Jeff's wife. Jeff's wife received her own revelatory confirmation of this fact, and they engaged in a sexual relationship for quite a while. Jeff knew about it, and also affirmed that God had told him it was his will, as well. Yet, when Jeff talked about this on camera, the pain on his face was so clear and poignant it was hard to watch.

Wayne eventually got into legal trouble for laying naked with underage followers - who, by the way, also insisted that it was God's will.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/strong/strong12.html

First, Jeff's testimony:

CALLER: Hi, I'm just curious what convinced Jeff, finally, that his father had been taken over, transformed from Jesus Christ?

KING: Did you just accept it on fact, or what convinced you, Jeff?

J. BENT: First of all, he's not Jesus Christ and what convinced me, it's the fact that I know God. And God told me personally that he is who he says he is, and he is telling the truth.

And I've known my dad for 44 years. He's never told me a lie once. I've never seen him contrive a story once for his own self- interest. So, I have a lot of experience to bank on him and I know perfectly well, because I know him better than most people, that he's telling the truth.

KING: When you watch the panel discussion, and you heard them say that this is, obviously, this is a cult, and that your father is leading the flock, and it's - what did you make of the episode dealing with naked girls?

J. BENT: Well, nakedness is a picture of what we are to be with God. I don't have a problem with nakedness. I get naked every time I get into the shower. I don't see a problem with nakedness. And with these individuals who did request to be naked with him, that was something that they wanted. It was something they asked for.

My father has never insinuated or coerced or forced anybody to come to him with a request like that. So there's a lot of misconceptions about this, that are bantered about that are simply not true. It simply is not the experience we've had here.

KING: Jeff, what happens to your group, if your father is in prison, found guilty?

J. BENT: I don't believe that's going to happen. We see ourselves in the place now where Jesus and his followers were when Jesus was in the tomb. My father's been crucified by false charges. They couldn't find anything to charge him with that had really happened, so they trumped up something and put him in jail for it.

And they hope to keep him in there. And the tomb did not keep Jesus, he was in there a short time. When God decided it was time for him to come out, he came out. That's why I'm not looking at bail and looking for some way, legal way to get him out of there. I'm looking for God to get him out of there. God's going to do it by his hand.

KING: Do you ever question your beliefs, Jeff?

J. BENT: Do I question my beliefs? I don't have beliefs, Larry. I have God.

God is the one that leads me. I'm not confined to a set of rules or interpretations of things. I'm led by a spirit that talks to me every day that leads me and interprets things for me. I don't question that. It's always led me perfectly. It's a rock that I'm built on. And beliefs are sand. If you have something like this come and hit you, and you are just built on beliefs, you're going to get blown over. And we're not being blown over here.

KING: You worry about your dad?

J. BENT: I feel for him. He's heavy on my heart. I love him dearly. And I can tell you Larry, I of all people have a reason not to love him. But I love him with all my heart.

KING: thank you, Jeff. We're going to do more on this, but we've run out of time.

KING: I'll bet.

In the documentary, Jeff, we learned that your father had sex with your wife while you were still married to her - and more than once.

Now, here's how he explained it in the documentary. And we'll get your reaction.

Watch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it was just a single occasion, this literal physical consummation?

W. BENT: No, it wasn't.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you - you consummated more than once?

W. BENT: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is it necessary to consummate more than once?

W. BENT: Could you not answer that question yourself?

When you marry a wife, do you consummate only once?

KING: How did you react to that circumstance?

J. BENT: Well, I would like to correct something, Larry, for the record.

KING: All right.

J. BENT: And that is that my dad did not have sex with my wife. My wife and I...

KING: He said he did there, didn't he?

J. BENT: Sir, we were divorced - separated.

KING: I'm sorry. Go ahead.

J. BENT: We were separated permanently in August of 2006 and we had terminated our marriage relationship at that time. And by the time my former wife was spiritually married to Michael and went through the consummation with him, our relationship was over. It was terminated.

So he did not have sex with my wife. And the nature of the consummations that have happened here are not are not - are not what you would call sex, even though it does - the world looks at sex as this amorous, passionate type of experience of gratifying yourself with someone else.

And with him and with these consummations that have been ordained by God, they were not that way. They were not of essential Earthly nation. It was a spiritual experience that was illustrated by a physical act. And that's the marriage that these seven women have with Michael.

KING: So is that - is your group considered polygamist?

J. BENT: No. I believe that a polygamist practice would be a literal Earthly normal marriage relationship carried out between more than two people. And that's not the nature of the relationship that Michael has with his witnesses. It's spiritual.

And from one of the under-aged girls who laid naked with Wayne:

KING: ...charged with sex crimes against children. His followers standing by the man who calls himself a messiah. His son defending shocking behavior that put his father behind bars. He wants to explain it all. And he'll have the chance...a self-proclaimed messiah was in court today facing criminal sex charges. We're going to look at the Lord of Righteousness Church - cult or not a cult?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I took off my clothes and I laid naked on his bed. And he just held me. And it was like a whole new picture opened up to me of God.

KING: One of the most disturbing things from the documentary "Inside a Cult" is to hear young girls talk openly about being naked with Michael. Watch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Members no longer -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This needed to be literally physically naked. And so he took me, we went to the bedroom and laid down, and he held me, and some how, it was like, all of heaven was open to me. Somehow, I started to see God. Well, somehow, it was the son of God holding me. And so, I'm laying there, and it's like - for the first time, I was like, God loves me. He loves me.

And Michael was saying things to me like, you're accepted, you know, you're healed, and I felt so secure. It was like - I don't ever want to leave this place. It was like, this was God holding me. So, and then, you know, the next day, father sent you.

KING: Rachel Bernstein, psychotherapist, cult expert, what is your read on this?

RACHEL BERNSTEIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That was also the most troubling part for me, when I was watching this particularly documentary on National Geographic Channel. What I found so troubling about that was that their emotional state was so disengaged from what was really taking place.

It's as though the language that's used within the cult is something that is used to really propel people to feel very differently about what is truly going on. To have them really not see the reality of the situation.

KING: Why? Why do they not see it?

BERNSTEIN: I think in part because they don't want to see it. And also, because they have been so programmed for so long to really believe in the innocence of the leader, rather than his guilt. Very much like his own son believes, if they truly had a sense of what was happening there, they would have, I think, for some of them, nervous breakdowns. They would have to say good-bye to the life they know, to the entire goal of this group, which is to be devoted to it for life.

Now, if we were to apply whyme's logic, we would have to accept that there was no "wrong" in Bent's behavior. The women did not claim to be harmed, and even claimed that the experience brought them closer to God.

Of course, Koresh and Bent are only two well-known examples from a much larger set - the set of charismatic religious leaders who end up using their religious influence to attain sexual access to more females in the group. That whyme appears unaware of this trend is stunning, and bespeaks to a whole new level of ignorance or naïvété.

One final quote from the Bent interview:

ANTHONY: I think Wayne believes it. I think that it's - it's complicated. There are things that I believe he's done which I feel are manipulative, which suggests he knows what he's doing, up to a point. But there's a strong sense of delusion I feel with him, and he is completely convinced of his own righteousness.

To me, the final lesson of David Koresh and Wayne Bent is that people can truly become totally, sincerely convinced of things that most other people would view as deeply delusional - and convince large groups of people to share this delusion.

I would include Joseph Smith in that group, as well, but of course LDS believers would insist he doesn't belong in that group. They would insist that while these other men obviously were delusional and just taking sexual advantage of their followers, Joseph Smith, by contrast, was the real deal, and "did no wrong" - cuz, you know, they'd be the first to admit if Joseph Smith did wrong.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Walmart,

I guess I am not clear...

Let me try again.

If "the Principle" was nothing but a little prayer to ensure heavenly friendships or a heavenly family no one would have cared. It would not have to be a secret, there would not be any lies, it would have been a non-issue, probably along the lines of a blessing of the sick, a calling to be a leader, or some such thing. Irrelevant to neighbors.
As I said, it wouldn't even be a blip on the screen.

Did neighbors get upset when they discovered Joseph Smith started "marrying" young girls and women? You bet they did!

AS IT WOULD IF you had a neighbor who tried to screw your fourteen year old daughter or pick up your wife by promising her God told him to take her to bed.

Most neighborhoods would not be OK with a guy down the street who engaged in similar behavior as Joseph Smith. basically if anyone caught a thirty-something married man in the barn with a sixteen year old he would be in jail. The ONLY reason you give Joseph Smith a free pass is because you want to believe he is a prophet but I'm pretty sure you are aware that followers of Joseph Smith are no different than followers of other cults and religions.

So, Walmart, where is God in all this?

So, lets say God really was concerned about Joseph Smith's sex life and wanted him to get into bed with all these girls and women and wives of other men... we'll go with this for now. Where was God? If this eternal principal was so important why couldn't God step in and help a tad? Like he did when Moses parted the Red Sea, or like he did when he made Laban drunk so Nephi could slaughter him and cut off his head, or like he did when he sent plagues to the Egyptians?

My point is, if God could help out with other much simpler things, where was God when God was restoring an eternal principal?

This idea that Joseph Smith had to lie to Emma and those members who were not in on the secret to establish truth is just nonsense.

Again, where was God?

~td~

[_beastie]

If "the Principle" was nothing but a little prayer to ensure heavenly friendships or a heavenly family no one would have cared. It would not have to be a secret, there would not be any lies, it would have been a non-issue, probably along the lines of a blessing of the sick, a calling to be a leader, or some such thing. Irrelevant to neighbors.
As I said, it wouldn't even be a blip on the screen.

This is also my reaction to Josephine Lyon's mother, Sylvia Sessions, telling her, on her deathbed, that she was the child of Joseph Smith. Apologists respond that this simply referred to the sealing, that since Sylvia had been sealed to Joseph, Josephine was his daughter in a spiritual sense. Yet this doesn't make sense in the context of the confession - something that Sylvia kept secret and revealed only on her deathbed. It also doesn't make sense that Sylvia singled Josephine out, and didn't refer to her other children as Joseph Smith's children, as well.

[_Jason Bourne]

While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.” Lucy said, “This arroused every drop of scotch in my veins...I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a liveing Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was unbearable.”

Now, bearing the burden of her own eternal salvation and that of her family, and with a deadline approaching, Lucy prayed more fervently for an answer. She couldn’t sleep the entire night. Just before dawn, and Joseph’s deadline, she “received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the mariage covenant called 'Celestial or plural mariage'” and "I afterwards married Joseph as a plural wife and lived and cohabitated with him as such." Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.” Of the relationship, Lucy said, “It was not a love matter, so to speak, in our affairs, -at least on my part it was not, but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world.”


What to say about it all? Now of course the website that I pruned this from is not prolds and so, I don't consider this to be totally favorable. But it is the opinion of one person who

experienced it. She did not say a negative word about Joseph Smith.[/quote]

Why me,

Can you honestly read this and not see the predicament a woman who fully believed Smith a prophet would not be in in the scenario. Do you not find the approach Joseph took full of duress for Lucy? Can you not see how this account really shows a man who very likely could have been taking advantage of the power, position and charisma he held over a female follower? DO you think this...

He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

... is abusive of the position and power Joseph had?

I am sorry but I see little godly in this approach.

[_why me]

Uh, it's actually quite common for leaders of new, fringe religious movements to receive important spiritual information that centers around getting them sexual access to multiple women even if that is risky to their position. Changing how sexual relationships happen is even more common. I don't know about you, but when I think of your stereotypical confidence man cult leader part of the picture is having relationships with multiple female followers. Think David Koresh. Regardless of whether you think it legit or not, this behavior from Smith makes him at least look very much like them.

I think that this kind of comparison comes from critics who are almost out of ammunition. When all is lost, lets bring up Koresh. And yet, it is a very poor comparison. For the comparison to have validity, the LDS church would have had to disappear in 1844 with Joseph Smith and his flock committing suicide facing the US army.

[_harmony]

I think that this kind of comparison comes from critics who are almost out of ammunition. When all is lost, lets bring up Koresh. And yet, it is a very poor comparison. For the comparison to have validity, the LDS church would have had to disappear in 1844 with Joseph Smith and his flock committing suicide facing the US army.

Actually, that was Woodruff. He blinked.

[_why me]

[quote="Jason Bourne"][quote]

Why me,

Can you honestly read this and not see the predicament a woman who fully believed Smith a prophet would not be in in the scenario. Do you not find the approach Joseph took full of duress for Lucy? Can you not see how this account really shows a man who very likely could have been taking advantage of the power, position and charisma he held over a female follower? DO you think this...[quote]He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”



Why me said:Well, the site was not prolds. However, I see no problem with it if we look at Joseph Smith as a prophet who had a mission to accomplish. In the end, she did receive a powerful witness and if this witness was not given, she would have refused. If Joseph Smith believed himself to be a prophet and he had a mission from God to fulfill, what should he have done? What would be more godly? To my understanding Lucy did just fine and had no problem with plural marriage.

It all depends what side of the fence one is standing. For those who don't consider him to be a prophet, it all smacks of abuse. But for those who do consider him to be a prophet, he had a mission to accomplish.

Do you see god always acting godly?

[_why me]

Hi again Why me,

On the polygamy question (Beastie I guess I'm a copy cat too, because all through Why me's posts I'm thinking....David Koresh....David Koresh) nothing made me so uncomfortable about Joseph Smith than studying the life and practice of Vernon Wayne Howell.

When you start to look at his life and claims, you can kind of see why, in context, so many were influenced and taken in by him, and he knew it. The man had charisma and great religious influence within his own community, as Joseph did.

We often think the guy was a crank for calling himself Messiah and anyone was a fool to follow a false Jesus. Yet Messiah (as he explains) means 'annointed one', and remember that Joseph himself claims that he has done more for his people than Jesus and Joseph under the name 'prophet' claims to be the middleman between the 'church' and the 'people' as the prophets of old.(I taught this as a missionary Why me).

Branch Davidians were not 'started' by Koresh, but had existed away from the 7th Day Adventists, since the 50's. (think Sydney Rigdon's group joining Mormonism in mass) Koresh may not have had the missionary program that the LDS church has had through its history, which kept numbers small, but he did have access to a group who were 'already' religious devouts.

Koresh was remarkably good at taking scripture and using to his own ends. The man was no idiot and was a good exhorter. (same for Joseph - see ED Howe's affidavits for even a non-mormon's opinion)

Koresh very quickly used his sexuality to gain power and influence over women (Lois Roden) and then to justify sexual access to any women he took his eye to. This is interesting because many parents came to see it as a privilege to have their daughters in a relationship with Koresh. (sound familiar)

Now, I don't think Joseph was a 'bad' or evil man, though I do think that on occassion he did some 'bad' and 'evil' things. I do think he was a 'man', and a man with a keen sex drive, who attempted to hone that drive with religious justification. (just as David Koresh did as he saw his power and religious influence increase within the community of which he was a part)

And on the subject of Jesus, who afterall the LDS church is named after. Let's look at his life. Did he (from current knowledge) use his religious influence, and he definitely had a female following, to bed women. I would suggest no, and if he didn't, then why would Joseph Smith (if he is to follow Jesus' life and example) think that he could? Was he following David, or Solomon or Saul, or was he trying to follow Jesus?

Mary

Well...here is the rub, Mary. Joseph went to prison and died and the saints prospered without him after a troublesome trek out west. Who survived Koresh? Thus, the comparison falls apart like a house of cards on a windy day.

[_Mary]

Beastie, thankyou for the information on Wayne Bent. I had never heard of him. Heady stuff.

Whyme, surely you can see the similarities between David Koresh and the way he used his religious influence to gain sexual access to women, and Joseph? It's staring me right in the face, and I don't quite understand how you couldn't see it.

By the way, he was a reasonably good singer...(and a pretty good guitarist)

Interesting character indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNZQuZojDv4