Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

[_harmony]

So until documentation shows up for earlier affairs, Fanny works just fine.

Does she?

Nonsense, whyme. And you know it. The timing is clear; there is nothing ambiguous about the whole dirty little affair. Joseph got caught with his pants down in a barn with a girl not his wife. No amount of whitewash is going to change that. You can bet your entire exaltation on Joseph's character; I choose to go with the facts. A man with his pants around his ankles in a barn with a girl not his wife isn't one I choose follow to hell. He lost the prophetic mantle the second he played marriage with anyone but Emma. And his subsequent revelations showed that.

God will not be mocked.

[_harmony]

It does seem that kinship ruled the day. I think that Joseph Smith was a very fertile guy. Strange that no women had any children by him. Now I know that there have been rumors...but so far none existed or have been found out. Now that is strange. No birth control at that time except by the natural method.

Depends on if you consider abortion natural birth control, I suppose.

[_beastie]

Josephine Rosetta Lyon Fisher is indeed very, very much likely to have been the Biological Daughter of Joseph Smith.

Thanks for providing that information, Brackite. Obviously not all apologists are particularly persuaded by the lame "Sylvia was just referring to sealing" argument.

What is really potentially funny about this is if the first DNA identified offspring of Joseph Smith turns out to be from one of his polyandrous marriages.

[_beastie]

Depends on if you consider abortion natural birth control, I suppose.

I don't think either birth control or abortion is required to explain the lack of offspring. Whyme almost got it, except he went too far. Joseph Smith did not have time to have regular sex with all his wives. Emma was watching him like a hawk, and he had hide the relationships from unsuspecting followers, as well, who believed his lies from the pulpit. His time with the wives was little and stressed. Neither is optimum for conception.

[_Brackite]

Now, Here is First Timothy Chapter Three, Verses One though Three, From The New International Version of the Bible:

1 Timothy 3:1-3: (New International Version):

Overseers and Deacons

1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

A Christian Leader is Not allowed to have more than one wife.

And, Here is First Timothy Chapter Three, Verses One though Three, From The New International Reader's Version of the Bible:

1 Timothy 3:1-3 (New International Reader's Version):

Leaders and Deacons

1 Here is a saying you can trust. If anyone wants to be a leader in the church, he wants to do a good work for God and people.
2 A leader must be free from blame. He must be faithful to his wife. In anything he does, he must not go too far. He must control himself. He must be worthy of respect. He must welcome people into his home. He must be able to teach. 3 He must not get drunk. He must not push people around. He must be gentle. He must not be a person who likes to argue. He must not love money.

A Christian Leader is Supposed to be faithful to his one wife.
A Christian Leader is Not allowed to have more than one wife.

[_why me]

Depends on if you consider abortion natural birth control, I suppose.

Whyme almost got it, except he went too far. Joseph Smith did not have time to have regular sex with all his wives. Emma was watching him like a hawk, and he had hide the relationships from unsuspecting followers, as well, who believed his lies from the pulpit. His time with the wives was little and stressed. Neither is optimum for conception.

Beastie almost got it right except she left out one major detail. As she explained there was little enjoyment in all this. It was never about the sex but it was about obeying the will of god.

Now as most women know, they know a horny toad when they see or experience one. Joseph Smith does not show signs of horny toadism with his plural wives nor do his wives ever mention the fact that Joseph Smith did not care for them but was in it only for the sex. And I will need to question his performance abilities if sex did play a role. As any guy will tell you, pressure does not add to the libido...just ask a porn star. Performance on demand can be rather daunting especially when time comes into the picture.

Now comes the question: if polygamy was difficult...if time contraints would pervent Joseph Smith from having a 'normal' relationship with his plural wives and if emma was watching him like a hawk and just a little upset about it all----why do it? If he were a fraud why go the polygamy route? It seems mighty stupid to me. All pain and no fun. And eventually one reason for his death in 1844.

I have said over and over again, he could have gotten some sex the next town over. And if caught, just give a forgive me speech to the saints and move on. Now that would be normal.

[_Dr. Shades]

Beastie almost got it right except she left out one major detail. As she explained there was little enjoyment in all this.

How do you know?

Now as most women know, they know a horny toad when they see or experience one. Joseph Smith does not show signs of horny toadism with his plural wives nor do his wives ever mention the fact that Joseph Smith did not care for them but was in it only for the sex.

If Joseph was only in it for the sex, do you honestly believe he would've let his plural wives in on that fact?

And while we're on the subject of "horny toadism," would you also argue that David Koresh's and Jim Jones's polygamy also did not show any signs of "horny toadism?" Why or why not?

And I will need to question his performance abilities if sex did play a role. As any guy will tell you, pressure does not add to the libido...just ask a porn star. Performance on demand can be rather daunting especially when time comes into the picture.

Maybe, but porn stars DO get the job done, pressure or no pressure.

Now comes the question: if polygamy was difficult...if time contraints would pervent Joseph Smith from having a 'normal' relationship with his plural wives and if emma was watching him like a hawk and just a little upset about it all----why do it?

That's just it: He wasn't after a "normal" relationship with his plural wives.

If he were a fraud why go the polygamy route?

That's the whole point. If he was a fraud, why NOT go the polygamy route?

It seems mighty stupid to me. All pain and no fun.

Since when is consensual sex not fun, especially for the guy?

And eventually one reason for his death in 1844.

But he didn't KNOW that it'd become one reason for his death in 1844. You're acting like he knew where it would lead, when the exact opposite is the case.

I have said over and over again, he could have gotten some sex the next town over.

How do you know? What non-Mormon woman would give it up to him?

And if caught, just give a forgive me speech to the saints and move on. Now that would be normal.

But if he never got caught, he wouldn't HAVE to give a forgive me speech. That's why he didn't want to get caught.

[_truth dancer]

A powerful cult/religious leader gets caught having an affair with a girl... he knows he can't manage monogamy so has two choices:

1. Admit his affair and his problem, give up prophet-hood and power and become a disgrace, or

2. Find a way to convince his followers he was acting in God's will and it is God that wants him to have sex with numerous girls and women.

Seems powerful religions/cult leaders often opt for #2. (yeah, today we see a few of these fallen evangelical leaders opt for #1 but #2 seems the norm for small religions/cults).

~td~

[_EAllusion]

Why me -

You made a very specific argument. The argument was that polygamy was so dangerous to the longterm prospects of a religion, no religious fraudster would engage in it unless they believed they were genuinely obligated to do so by God or they were a complete idiot.

I find this argument inane and, as it happens, humorous given the following:

1) It is extremely common for charismatic leaders of new religious movements to rearrange how sexual relationships happen in their group in a way that is out of step with the surrounding social norms and is likely to antagonize them. That's the core issue of your argument, however...

2) It likewise is common for that rearranging to involve the male leader getting access to multiple female partners.

This is so common that when I think of your stereotypical cult leader, part of what I imagine is funky sexual practices that advantage the leader. Yet you probably think of at least some of them as "fraudsters." There are lots of examples of this. David Koresh is one. This isn't to say that Koresh and Smith are comparable in every single way. It's to say that David Koresh is an example of a person who contradicts your argument. You might think he was a complete idiot, which is what I initially anticipated you using as your escape hatch for the countless counterexamples that exist for your - ahem - logic. People making decisions about sex that are unwise for other goals they have? Shocking!

(On an aside, you might have a hard time appreciating this, but other people get offended when their religious leader is compared to J. Smith for similar reasons why you probably do when your preferred leader is compared to Koresh.)

[_DarkHelmet]

I find this argument inane and, as it happens, humorous given the following:

1) It is extremely common for charismatic leaders of new religious movements to rearrange how sexual relationships happen in their group in a way that is out of step with the surrounding social norms and is likely to antagonize them. That's the core issue of your argument, however...

2) It likewise is common for that rearranging to involve the male leader getting access to multiple female partners.

you're right. It is not a convincing argument especially when one of the profile traits of weird cult leaders is that they have sex with their female followers and often times set the rules of sexual relations within their group, typically giving themselves the best sex opportunities (big surprise.) David Koresh is only one example. The Mormon splinter groups prophets like LaBaron and Jeffs are another example. Jim Jones had sex with his followers. Even the reverend Moon screwed his followers. It is predictable behavior for these charismatic leaders of new religious movements. It would've been more surprising if Joseph Smith simply had a monogamous marriage with Emma while preaching the gospel (what a concept). Whether or not Joseph Smith was a cult leader like the rest of these guys is not the point. The point is he used his position to give himself the best access to sex within the group, just like the other guys.