Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

[_Jason Bourne]

You are not exactly paying much of a compliment to the fairer sex are you? I do believe that a feminist would pull your ear for saying so.

Oh please. I am not calling women stupid. I am discussion human nature and reiterating a point made by TD, who is a woman by the way. I would make the same argument for the so called test Joseph Smith put upon Heber Kimball.

As my link showed, these women were not wimps. Rather they were strong willed and strong minded. Joseph Smith would not nor could not pull the wool over their eyes for very long.

It is not a matter of being a wimp. It is not a matter of having the wool piled over their eyes.

Man or woman who was strong and rejected JSs proposal? What do you make of Nancy Rigdon?

I don't think that those women who obtained a witness were motivated to do so. I do think that they would have rather receive no witness at all. They prayed for guidence after refusing and received a witness. What more is there to say about it?

Sure they were motivate. Man who is prophet who taught one wife, no adutlery etc suddenly introduces a dramatic doctrine that is so far outside of the norm that mostly recoil, Man who is prophet says that God told him to do this, even sent and angel to kill him if he did not, and also eternal life hinges on accepting this. Women is astounded and wonders how can this be? But Joseph must be a prophet. If woman does not get answer that says accept it then she may be flawed as well as damned.

You don't need to like it but that still doesn't change it.

Nor do you.

[_DarkHelmet]

I was just thinking of how "famous" Joseph smith would be without polygamy. Most of the well known "charismatic cult leaders" (as defined by main stream Christianity) are involved in sex scandals. However, I am sure there are many charismatic leaders of new religious movements who don't get involved with polygamy or sex with their followers. We hardly hear about these guys. Why? Because they're boring. They aren't breaking the law and abusing their power. They're simply preaching the word of god to people who want to listen. In order to become famous as a religious leader, you really need to draw media attention to the weird sexual arrangements within your group.

Could this be why god forced Joseph Smith to practice polygamy? Without polygamy, Mormonism would've been pretty boring. It would have been just one of many new religious movements in the US at the time. Mormonism still would have had the gold plates, the Book of Mormon, the first vision, and banking scandals, but none of that would have drawn the notoriety that polygamy, and rumors of polygamy, did. Without the notoriety of polygamy, could Mormonism have grown? Bad publicicty is better than no publicity and polygamy kept Mormonism in the news, increasing public interest. More public interest = more people talking to missionaries and church leaders which meant more opportunity for conversions. Perhaps polygamy was god's way of growing the church through media exposure, then when the church was big enough he took polygamy away. What a genius plan. It's perfect, just like heavenly father.

[_why me]

Are you a prophet, too? Self-proclaimed authority? I will call it arrogance.

WhyMe you are no sharper than a bowling ball but a whole lot denser.

No more arrogant than the posters on this thread who are calling Joseph Smith a sexaholic and a charleton---ie, a horny toad.

[_why me]

I was just thinking of how "famous" Joseph smith would be without polygamy. Most of the well known "charismatic cult leaders" (as defined by main stream Christianity) are involved in sex scandals. However, I am sure there are many charismatic leaders of new religious movements who don't get involved with polygamy or sex with their followers. We hardly hear about these guys. Why? Because they're boring. They aren't breaking the law and abusing their power. They're simply preaching the word of god to people who want to listen. In order to become famous as a religious leader, you really need to draw media attention to the weird sexual arrangements within your group.

The attention was already present without polygamy. From day one, the LDS church met with opposition and received press coverage. Now Joseph Smith and the Mormons would be a footnote in the history books if the antimormons would have left the Mormons alone to practice their beliefs. No one would have cared too much about their beliefs. But the antimormons were making such a stink about Joseph Smith and the golden Bible, the press could not resist. And then of course, there was an escalation by the antimormons with mobs and violence and persecution toward the Mormons until Joseph Smith was murdered and the Mormon head west and organize what would be known as Utah. Thereby cementing their place in American history.

But if they were only allowed to live their faith, no one would have noticed...but....it was not meant to be.

[_DarkHelmet]

Are you a prophet, too? Self-proclaimed authority? I will call it arrogance.

WhyMe you are no sharper than a bowling ball but a whole lot denser.

No more arrogant than the posters on this thread who are calling Joseph Smith a sexaholic and a charleton---ie, a horny toad.

It does seem Joseph Smith is either the greatest person since Jesus Christ, or a sexaholic, fraud, and charleton. He is a very polarizing figure, just the type of person god would want to restore his one true church;) I think most critics will admit Joseph Smith had some admirable qualities. For one thing, he seemed to be very progressive on slavery for the time period. I'm agnostic, but some of his theology made more sense than traditional Christianity to me. God and Jesus as separate beings and God once being a man and we can become a Gods makes more sense to me than traditional christian concepts of god and Jesus. I don't buy it, but Joseph Smith actually makes some sense. Could an apologist ever point out a flaw in Joseph Smith? I'm not talking minor flaws, like he sometimes would get angry, but then would say a prayer and apologize to those who he offended. I mean big flaws such as abuse of power, breaking the law, immorality. I have never heard an apologist say Joseph Smith was certainly a prophet, but polygamy was wrong, or Joseph really blew it with the Book of Abraham. The foundation of the church will not allow for such thinking. He was either the second most perfect person ever, or he was a fraud. To quote Hinckley, "there is no middle ground."

[_truth dancer]

Edit: I mistakenly thought Why Me wrote the following so disregard this post...
Sorry Why me.

Dark Helmet... very funny!

______

Hi Why Me,

I'm not sure if you are joking or not... hmmm hard to tell!

I was just thinking of how "famous" Joseph smith would be without polygamy. Most of the well known "charismatic cult leaders" (as defined by main stream Christianity) are involved in sex scandals. However, I am sure there are many charismatic leaders of new religious movements who don't get involved with polygamy or sex with their followers. We hardly hear about these guys. Why? Because they're boring. They aren't breaking the law and abusing their power. They're simply preaching the word of god to people who want to listen. In order to become famous as a religious leader, you really need to draw media attention to the weird sexual arrangements within your group.

Could this be why god forced Joseph Smith to practice polygamy? Without polygamy, Mormonism would've been pretty boring. It would have been just one of many new religious movements in the US at the time. Mormonism still would have had the gold plates, the Book of Mormon, the first vision, and banking scandals, but none of that would have drawn the notoriety that polygamy, and rumors of polygamy, did. Without the notoriety of polygamy, could Mormonism have grown? Bad publicicty is better than no publicity and polygamy kept Mormonism in the news, increasing public interest. More public interest = more people talking to missionaries and church leaders which meant more opportunity for conversions. Perhaps polygamy was god's way of growing the church through media exposure, then when the church was big enough he took polygamy away. What a genius plan. It's perfect, just like heavenly father.

God, the God of the Universe, you know the one who made galaxies and stars and planets and energy, decided that the only way to get people to look at the church was to get some really, seriously bad publicity by commanding his representative to screw girls and married women and break their hearts (as he said in the Book of Mormon)? Are you kidding?

Why not help the prophet do some really cool miracles? Maybe restore a limb or two? How about some revelation on germ theory? How about a little inspiration to boil water?

No, gotta hurt women and screw girls... yeah that will be great for the church and get some attention for Joseph Smith. WOW!

Why me, I've heard some pretty wild apologetic arguments but I have to say this takes the cake.



~td~

[_silentkid]

HI Why Me,

I'm not sure if you are joking or not... hmmm hard to tell!

I was just thinking of how "famous" Joseph smith would be without polygamy. Most of the well known "charismatic cult leaders" (as defined by main stream Christianity) are involved in sex scandals. However, I am sure there are many charismatic leaders of new religious movements who don't get involved with polygamy or sex with their followers. We hardly hear about these guys. Why? Because they're boring. They aren't breaking the law and abusing their power. They're simply preaching the word of god to people who want to listen. In order to become famous as a religious leader, you really need to draw media attention to the weird sexual arrangements within your group.

Could this be why god forced Joseph Smith to practice polygamy? Without polygamy, Mormonism would've been pretty boring. It would have been just one of many new religious movements in the US at the time. Mormonism still would have had the gold plates, the Book of Mormon, the first vision, and banking scandals, but none of that would have drawn the notoriety that polygamy, and rumors of polygamy, did. Without the notoriety of polygamy, could Mormonism have grown? Bad publicicty is better than no publicity and polygamy kept Mormonism in the news, increasing public interest. More public interest = more people talking to missionaries and church leaders which meant more opportunity for conversions. Perhaps polygamy was god's way of growing the church through media exposure, then when the church was big enough he took polygamy away. What a genius plan. It's perfect, just like heavenly father.

God, the God of the Universe, you know the one who made galaxies and stars and planets and energy, decided that the only way to get people to look at the church was to get some really, seriously bad publicity by commanding his representative to screw girls and married women and break their hearts (as he said in the Book of Mormon)? Are you kidding?

Why not help the prophet do some really cool miracles? Maybe restore a limb or two? How about some revelation on germ theory? How about a little inspiration to boil water?

No, gotta hurt women and screw girls... yeah that will be great for the church and get some attention for Joseph Smith. WOW!

Why me, I've heard some pretty wild apologetic arguments but I have to say this takes the cake.



~td~

TD: It was Dark Helmet who made the above quote, not why me. I'm pretty sure Dark Helmet was making a joke. I laughed, anyway (especially at the last line).

[_truth dancer]

Hi Silent Kid,

Phew.. thanks for that correction!

I need to be better at reading threads and keeping track of who is posting what!

I too was laughing out loud... while it seemed a little far fetched even for Why Me, and expanded the paradigm to bursting levels (smile) it did seem like a typical justification for pretty disgusting behavior.

I'd better go edit my post!

[_Inconceivable]

Why me:
I don't see him having a happy life at all as prophet. Rather I see his life as one big burden as he grew into his prophethood.

Then I guess we can agree on one thing, Why Me,

Wickedness never was happiness.

[_Dr. Shades]

truth dancer, the fact that you thought the sentence:

"In order to become famous as a religious leader, you really need to draw media attention to the weird sexual arrangements within your group."

. . . was written by why me, of all people, is almost funnier than Dark Helmet's post itself!