Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

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_why me
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _why me »

Uncle Dale wrote:
But Harris continued to believe in Smith's supernatural powers -- even if he did accuse
the self-proclaimed "prophet" of drinking alcohol, while "translating" the Book of Mormon.

Sidney Rigdon, later in life, voiced many strong criticisms of Smith -- essentially proclaiming
him a fallen prophet. But, like Harris, Rigdon continued to believe in Smith's magical powers.

Uncle Dale



Magical powers is a great word with some good negative connotations. Of course, by magical powers you must be implying how Joseph Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon. This would seem to contradict your own thesis that sidney wrote the book.

Harris still believed because he could not deny the vision he had with Oliver and Joseph. He also could not deny the other spiritual experiences that he had. Likewise for Oliver. And since sidney believed in Joseph Smith, the prophet; and believed how the Book of Mormon came about, he still kept the faith even after experiencing some difficulties.


Now did both these men consider Joseph Smith perfect? No.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Ray A

Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Ray A »

why me wrote:
Harris still believed because he could not deny the vision he had with Oliver and Joseph.


He could, actually. And he's the most doubting witness.

I recommend the History of the Church for an insight into this. He was the most unstable witness.

For more insight into his chracter:

Ronald W. Walker, "Martin Harris: Mormonism's Early Convert," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19 (Winter 1986): 34-35. "Once while reading scripture, he reportedly mistook a candle's sputtering as a sign that the devil desired him to stop. Another time he excitedly awoke from his sleep believing that a creature as large as a dog had been upon his chest, though a nearby associate could find nothing to confirm his fears. Several hostile and perhaps unreliable accounts told of visionary experiences with Satan and Christ, Harris once reporting that Christ had been poised on a roof beam."


And:

John A. Clark letter, August 31, 1840 in EMD, 2: 271: "No matter where he went, he saw visions and supernatural appearances all around him. He told a gentleman in Palmyra, after one of his excursions to Pennsylvania, while the translation of the Book of Mormon was going on, that on the way he met the Lord Jesus Christ, who walked along by the side of him in the shape of a deer for two or three miles, talking with him as familiarly as one man talks with another." According to two Ohio newspapers, shortly after Harris arrived in Kirtland he began claiming to have "seen Jesus Christ and that he is the handsomest man he ever did see. He has also seen the Devil, whom he described as a very sleek haired fellow with four feet, and a head like that of a Jack-ass." Vogel,EMD 2: 271, note 32.


Contradictory statements:

In March 1838, disillusioned church members said that Harris had publicly denied that neither he nor the other Witnesses to the Book of Mormon had ever seen or handled the golden plates—although he had not been present when Whitmer and Cowdery first claimed to have viewed them—and they claimed that Harris's recantation, made during a period of crisis in early Mormonism, induced five influential members, including three Apostles, to leave the Church.[28] Even at the end of his long life, Harris said that he had seen the plates in "a state of entrancement."[29] Nevertheless, in 1853, Harris told one David Dille that he had held the forty- to sixty-pound plates on his knee for "an hour-and-a-half" and handled the plates with his hands, "plate after plate."[30] Even later, Harris affirmed that he had seen the plates and the angel with his natural eyes: "Gentlemen," holding out his hand, "do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Or are your eyes playing you a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the Angel and the plates." [31] The following year Harris affirmed that "No man heard me in any way deny the truth of the Book of Mormon [or] the administration of the angel that showed me the plates."[32]


Wiki.

I'm not encouraging Wiki as a reliable source here, but it does encapsulate Harris's doubts. The simple fact is that he was an unstable person. The History of the Church gives the explaination that Harris was not able to view the plates with the other two witnesses, "because of his doubt", and Joseph had to take him aside, alone, to "convince" him that he "saw something". He did not "see" what the other two witnesses "saw", "because he lacked faith", and Joseph took him aside to try to convince him that an "angel really did appear". Apparently Joseph's "persuasions" (not what he saw) convinced him. Refer to the HC for verification of this. Even as a believer, the Harris experience bothered me, because it really seemed like Joseph was engaging in manipulation.

Sort of reminds me of when Loren Dunn was in Sydney. In one meeting, Dunn proclaimed that "angels were present". No one saw them, but at Dunn's suggestion, many believed that this was indeed the case, and it later became known as the meeting "at which angels were present".
_why me
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _why me »

Ray A wrote:
why me wrote:But she missed the Kirkland Joseph more than the Nauvoo Joseph but did not lose trust in his prophethood.


How would you explain, then, why she burned the revelation that became known as Section 132, and later even lied (denied) that polygamy was practised?

The kirkland Joseph emma considered more mainstream in his christianity. The Nauvoo Joseph with his marrying more women eventually led to his death. I do think that she may have had some doubts about the Nauvoo prophet. But even Emma could not deny the Book of Mormon and what occured during those early years. She never lost faith that her husband was a prophet. But polygamy was her big test. And she failed that test. And I can understand her failure very well. Many would have failed as she did. I do not blame her at all.

Section 132 was written in 1843 during the Nauvoo years.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Uncle Dale »

why me wrote:... But even Emma could not deny the Book of Mormon
... She never lost faith
...


I don't think Emma was much of a Mormon after 1845. I don't think she
raised her kids as Mormons, nor associated with Mormons between
about 1846 and 1859. Nor even much thereafter.

I doubt she even had a copy of the Book of Mormon in her house during
those years -- or that she ever opened up the JST manuscripts even once.

Can I prove her disinterest in the religion? No -- but I do not base my
opinion upon mere conjecture. There is a detailed tradition among the
RLDS that Emma was a luke-warm Saint and that it was her sons
Joseph and Alexander who were the true believers/advocates of the
Latter Day Saint religion when the Reorganization occurred.

Try and locate even one recorded "testimony" from Emma. Many may
be found for her sons -- none for Emma and her Gentile second husband.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Ray A wrote:I'm not encouraging Wiki as a reliable source here, but it does encapsulate Harris's doubts. The simple fact is that he was an unstable person. The History of the Church gives the explaination that Harris was not able to view the plates with the other two witnesses, "because of his doubt", and Joseph had to take him aside, alone, to "convince" him that he "saw something". He did not "see" what the other two witnesses "saw", "because he lacked faith", and Joseph took him aside to try to convince him that an "angel really did appear". Apparently Joseph's "persuasions" (not what he saw) convinced him. Refer to the HC for verification of this. Even as a believer, the Harris experience bothered me, because it really seemed like Joseph was engaging in manipulation.


Joseph Smith himself seems to have doubted Harris' testimony. He reports Harris' vision of the plates thusly:

"We accordingly joined in prayer, and ultimately obtained our desires, for before we had yet finished, the same vision was opened to our view, at least it was again opened to me, and I once more beheld and heard the same things; whilst at the same moment, Martin Harris cried out, apparently in an ecstasy of joy, ‘Tis enough; ‘tis enough; mine eyes have beheld; mine eyes have beheld;’ and jumping up, he shouted, ‘Hosanna,’ blessing God, and otherwise rejoiced exceedingly."

No one who thinks the phrase "purporting to be" saves the Book of Abraham can avoid the implications of the weasel words here!

Peace,

-Chris
_Ray A

Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Ray A »

why me wrote: But polygamy was her big test. And she failed that test. And I can understand her failure very well. Many would have failed as she did. I do not blame her at all.


Emma didn't fail the test. She passed with flying colours. The abject embarrassment and train of public denials that polygamy is today attests to that. And although the "revelation" said she would be "destroyed" if she rejected polygamy, it was ironically Joseph who went to his destruction over polygamy. But of course you won't see it that way, because in your book, Joseph can do no wrong. If he committed murder in the name of God - you'd be at his side like a leech sucking blood from a carcass and defending anything he did. That's why apologetics is such a sham. But I know it takes time to realise. Where you end up is more important than the ridiculous apologetics you presently support.
_marg

Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote:
why me wrote: But polygamy was her big test. And she failed that test. And I can understand her failure very well. Many would have failed as she did. I do not blame her at all.


Emma didn't fail the test. She passed with flying colours. The abject embarrassment and train of public denials that polygamy is today attests to that. And although the "revelation" said she would be "destroyed" if she rejected polygamy, it was ironically Joseph who went to his destruction over polygamy. But of course you won't see it that way, because in your book, Joseph can do no wrong. If he committed murder in the name of God - you'd be at his side like a leech sucking blood from a carcass and defending anything he did. That's why apologetics is such a sham. But I know it takes time to realise. Where you end up is more important than the ridiculous apologetics you presently support.


I actually believe much of what Why Me writes he isn't serious about, that he's deliberately yanking people's chains.

by the way Ray that was well written.
_Danna

Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Danna »

Uncle Dale,
fantastic to see you back!
_Danna

Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Danna »

Image
He was not trustworthy, but then none of the bad boys are.

Seeing Dean Cain in September Dawn sent the message home for me - how JSjr got away with what he did. Cain had the attitude and the look just right. JSjr would have had a similar impact I guess. Classic bad boy.
_why me
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _why me »

Uncle Dale wrote:I don't think Emma was much of a Mormon after 1845. I don't think she
raised her kids as Mormons, nor associated with Mormons between
about 1846 and 1859. Nor even much thereafter.

I doubt she even had a copy of the Book of Mormon in her house during
those years -- or that she ever opened up the JST manuscripts even once.

Can I prove her disinterest in the religion? No -- but I do not base my
opinion upon mere conjecture. There is a detailed tradition among the
RLDS that Emma was a luke-warm Saint and that it was her sons
Joseph and Alexander who were the true believers/advocates of the
Latter Day Saint religion when the Reorganization occurred.

UD

Her sons grew up believing in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon and so I am sure that she had a Book of Mormon. She did become adrift religiously. She suffered much during Joseph Smith's last few years. I think that she was torn between Joseph the human being and Joseph the prophet. But no where do I see her doubting what transpired during the Book of Mormon translation. (see bushman pages 554-555)

After suffering so much as a church member I can understand her reaction to faith. She was also human.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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