Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

[_why me]

I actually believe much of what Why Me writes he isn't serious about, that he's deliberately yanking people's chains.

by the way Ray that was well written.

I am not yanking chains. I am giving my viewpoint.

[_why me]

But polygamy was her big test. And she failed that test. And I can understand her failure very well. Many would have failed as she did. I do not blame her at all.

Emma didn't fail the test. She passed with flying colours. The abject embarrassment and train of public denials that polygamy is today attests to that. And although the "revelation" said she would be "destroyed" if she rejected polygamy, it was ironically Joseph who went to his destruction over polygamy. But of course you won't see it that way, because in your book, Joseph can do no wrong. If he committed murder in the name of God - you'd be at his side like a leech sucking blood from a carcass and defending anything he did. That's why apologetics is such a sham. But I know it takes time to realise. Where you end up is more important than the ridiculous apologetics you presently support.

If you say so Ray. I suppose that we will all find out the truth when we die. Then, perhaps we will discover that not only was Joseph Smith a fraud, but the Bible also. Now wouldn't that be a kick? Paul and all those guys written up by a sociopath who made it all up.

Because of polygamy Joseph Smith was a fraud? I don't think so. I think that he believed that he had a job to do and he attempted to accomplish it. All but three of his plural wives were sealed in Nauvoo from 1841-1843. Within that two year period he was sealed to many women. Something made him hurry. Did he know that his time was short and because of this, he had to do god's work sooner than later? I think so.

And so, how much sex could he have had with these women in such a short time period? Not much. Too busy. But something made him move in a hurry. And I don't think that it was lust.

[_Chap]

But polygamy was her big test. And she failed that test. And I can understand her failure very well. Many would have failed as she did. I do not blame her at all.

Emma didn't fail the test. She passed with flying colours. The abject embarrassment and train of public denials that polygamy is today attests to that. And although the "revelation" said she would be "destroyed" if she rejected polygamy, it was ironically Joseph who went to his destruction over polygamy. But of course you won't see it that way, because in your book, Joseph can do no wrong. If he committed murder in the name of God - you'd be at his side like a leech sucking blood from a carcass and defending anything he did. That's why apologetics is such a sham. But I know it takes time to realise. Where you end up is more important than the ridiculous apologetics you presently support.

If you say so Ray. I suppose that we will all find out the truth when we die. Then, perhaps we will discover that not only was Joseph Smith a fraud, but the Bible also. Now wouldn't that be a kick? Paul and all those guys written up by a sociopath who made it all up.

Because of polygamy Joseph Smith was a fraud? I don't think so. I think that he believed that he had a job to do and he attempted to accomplish it. All but three of his plural wives were sealed in Nauvoo from 1841-1843. Within that two year period he was sealed to many women. Something made him hurry. Did he know that his time was short and because of this, he had to do god's work sooner than later? I think so.

And so, how much sex could he have had with these women in such a short time period? Not much. Too busy. But something made him move in a hurry. And I don't think that it was lust.

'Why me' passes the test again! A marvelous work, and a wonder!

One of the reasons I keep coming back to look at this board is the way it shows me, over and over again, that intelligence, articulacy and access to information are not enough to get you out of the fatal habit of believing in six impossible things before breakfast, once it has gotten hold of you.

Goodness! Someone has even written a book about religious belief , using just that title:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Impossible- ... 0571209203

[_Pokatator]

I actually believe much of what Why Me writes he isn't serious about, that he's deliberately yanking people's chains.

by the way Ray that was well written.

I am not yanking chains. I am giving my viewpoint.

In the thread "What's in it for you?" WhyMe states:

I am hear to set the record straight. I certainly do not want the antimormons to have free reign on this board. However, I have noticed that the Mormons have more or less disappeared from the board. Not many apologist hang out here these days. Lawsuit threats and innuendos have depleted the Mormon posters. Too bad.

WhyMe believes that "setting the record straight" and "his viewpoint" are synonymous.

He is here to be a hero, to go where no other apologist dares to go, to make sure social justice is done "he doesn't want the antimormons to have free reign on this board". He doesn't care if his arguments are valid he just argues. That is true apologetics Mormon style.

WhyMe I have tired of your viewpoint, how about something to back them up? There have dozens of examples stated why Joe was not trustworthy you haven't offered a single example of him being trustworthy. Not one.

WhyMe I think you are sincere in your viewpoint, but sincerely wrong.

[_Yong Xi]

I don't see the buried treasure as a problem at all. It would seem that with his experience he would be a good man for the job. In fact, it seems that he was being prepared for his destiny.

Your aligning yourself with the Bushman position fails to make this any more plausible. It is hard to believe that a practice (money digging, glass looking) that brought Joseph up on charges of being a "disorderly person" would be a tool that God would use to prepare a prophet. This line of reasoning leads me to wonder what it was that Joseph did as a youth, and was facilitated by God that prepared Joseph to successfully practice polygamy and fulfill his destiny. The only thing that comes to mind is fornication.

[_harmony]

Because of polygamy Joseph Smith was a fraud?

Not a fraud, necessarily. If he was a fraud, that can't be blamed on polygamy. If he was a fraud, the Book of Mormon is at the foundation of that. Add in a false revelation about restoration of the priesthood, the false translation of the Book of Abraham, and several smaller false translations and then he'd be a fraud.

However, if Joseph was a prophet, then what happened with Fanny and his resultant unrepentent attitude that led to the extreme sin of putting words into God's mouth is what led to him losing the prophetic mantle.

It would have been better for him in the long run, and he would likely have had a much longer life, if he'd just been a fraud.

[_Pokatator]

But Harris continued to believe in Smith's supernatural powers -- even if he did accuse
the self-proclaimed "prophet" of drinking alcohol, while "translating" the Book of Mormon.

Sidney Rigdon, later in life, voiced many strong criticisms of Smith -- essentially proclaiming
him a fallen prophet. But, like Harris, Rigdon continued to believe in Smith's magical powers.

Uncle Dale

Magical powers is a great word with some good negative connotations. Of course, by magical powers you must be implying how Joseph Smith brought forth the Book of Mormon. This would seem to contradict your own thesis that sidney wrote the book.

Harris still believed because he could not deny the vision he had with Oliver and Joseph. He also could not deny the other spiritual experiences that he had. Likewise for Oliver. And since sidney believed in Joseph Smith, the prophet; and believed how the Book of Mormon came about, he still kept the faith even after experiencing some difficulties.


Now did both these men consider Joseph Smith perfect? No.

Magical powers is a great word and it describes the situation well. I have seen David Copperfield live and Siegfeld and Roy live. It was magical, I can't explain how they do the things they do. I have seen James Randy debunk many magic acts and tricks, but not all. I can't help but be amazed even at the tricks that have been debunked.

Joe pulled off some amazing things that could be described as magical. He got followers, followers that couldn't explain everything he did but it doesn't make it all true. All that Joe did is not trustworthy. In fact very little can be considered trustworthy. WhyMe you can't even give an example.

Yep, Martin and others were in awe of Joe and some of the things he did, but they couldn't buy the whole package. I am in awe of what Copperfield can do but I know it is trickery. David would have had a field day in the 1800s. But, whyme, in my viewpoint it is all trickery.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
it is all trickery.

I think that Joseph believed in himself -- at times.

I think that Joseph believed what he was doing was good -- at times.

Thus, when we accuse him of "fraud," we also need to ask the question:
"To what end?" -- and the answer is seldom a simple one.

Take a handful of rubes from 1829 and surreptitiously administer a
measure of belladonna and jimsonweed to them. Show them a pile
of metallic-looking pages. Make use of a few "gee-whiz" visual and
sound effects. And what will they experience?

No -- hold that thought.

Let me back up a step.

First of all, prepare those rubes with exhibitions of the most heartfelt
religious professions imaginable. Dazzle them with accounts of heavenly
visions. Scare them with pronouncements of Divine Wrath. Flatter them
with self-serving prophecies. Weep and gasp with affected displays of
intense brotherly love. Dwell for hours upon the fate of their eternal
souls. Sing emotional hymns with them. Fast and pray for hours on end.

OK -- now surreptitiously administer a measure of belladonna and
jimsonweed to them. Show them a pile of metallic-looking pages.
Make use of a few "gee-whiz" visual and sound effects. And what will
they experience?

UD

[_DarkHelmet]

I think that he believed that he had a job to do and he attempted to accomplish it. All but three of his plural wives were sealed in Nauvoo from 1841-1843. Within that two year period he was sealed to many women. Something made him hurry. Did he know that his time was short and because of this, he had to do god's work sooner than later? I think so.

LOL. So you're saying Joseph knew his time was short so he had to get busy and get as much of god's work done as possilbe. And what work is this that is so urgent? Why, Joseph Smith marrying as many women as possible, of course. That's awesome. With everything going on in the world, god's "work" was having women marry Joseph Smith.

[_Uncle Dale]

I think that he believed that he had a job to do and he attempted to accomplish it. All but three of his plural wives were sealed in Nauvoo from 1841-1843. Within that two year period he was sealed to many women. Something made him hurry. Did he know that his time was short and because of this, he had to do god's work sooner than later? I think so.

LOL. So you're saying Joseph knew his time was short so he had to get busy and get as much of god's work done as possilbe. And what work is this that is so urgent? Why, Joseph Smith marrying as many women as possible, of course. That's awesome. With everything going on in the world, god's "work" was having women marry Joseph Smith.

Let me see if I've got this down correctly...

In 1842-43 an angel came with a flaming sword, compelling Joe Smith to
take numerous new sexual partners --- in order to "raise seed" up to God.

So Joe obeyed and began the laborious task of "raising up seed" by many
women ----- knowing that his time on earth was short.

And he thus managed to "raise up".........................................

............ David Hyrum Smith, the insane, failed apostle of the Reorg apostates.

Am I missing anything important?

UD