Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

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_Kishkumen
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Kishkumen »

rcrocket wrote:And, the same family which produced Joseph of Egypt also produced murderers and rapists. The same Jesus who could pick 'em, picked Judas. True Christians don't believe in predestination, but in free will.


Ancient fairytales don't go very far toward proving your point.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Uncle Dale »

rcrocket wrote:...
Let's see, the "social monster" was picked up by the Reorganization, and he testified for JSIII before Congress leading to the Utah War. Seems your little sect thought a lot of him.


Or, as Joe Smith made him an apostle, we might say that the President
of the LDS Church thought a lot of him, John C. Bennett and other worthies
of the Nauvoo period. It was not the Reorganization that made William
a "special witness for Jesus Christ." William's private repentance was
accepted and that was it. He held no leadership position -- was not even
allowed to sit in a meeting of High Priests so long as Isaac Sheen headed
up that quorum.

The Reorganization did not exist when William opposed Deseret statehood
so his public statements had no connection to its incipient members -- as
good, bad or indifferent counsel.

There were certainly RLDS who knew very well what William's monstrous past
had been -- but his service on the side of the Union during the Civil War
appears to have driven the devil out of him -- at least there were no known
subsequent charges of fraud, child molestation, attempted seductions, etc.

Regarding your little newspaper article about Alvin and his father, it seems you are intent on playing as the fool the victim, not the perpetrator, in the story.


Imagine a person who walked into your house today, claiming to hear
disembodied voices, telling him what to do -- who claimed to hold the
keys to the final dispensation of the Christian gospel, who wanted to talk
to you about the time his daddy dug up the body of his elder brother and
how his own son is an inmate in a mental institution.

Perhaps that is just the sort of person you would automatically feel good
about, believe, and place your confidence in. But would you expect that
none of the rest of us would take the trouble to question his sanity?

UD

.
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_rcrocket

Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _rcrocket »

Aw; guilt by association -- the sins of the fathers and the sons (and brother). I'm glad to know that you judge the parents by the mental illness of a child. Comforting thought.

You could have saved me the trouble of all this by just pointing me to the affidavits collected by "Doctor" Hurl_butt.

I'm glad to hear that the Reorganization accepted the "monster" back -- pervert and adulterer that he was.
Last edited by _rcrocket on Fri May 08, 2009 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Kishkumen »

rcrocket wrote:You could have saved me the trouble of all this by just pointing me to the affidavits collected by "Doctor" Hurlbutt.


Which have to be bogus because Hurlbutt collected them, right?
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_rcrocket

Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _rcrocket »

Kishkumen wrote:
rcrocket wrote:You could have saved me the trouble of all this by just pointing me to the affidavits collected by "Doctor" Hurlbutt.


Which have to be bogus because Hurlbutt collected them, right?


Spell his name correctly and then I'll answer.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Kishkumen »

rcrocket wrote:Spell his name correctly and then I'll answer.


Sorry about the extra "t." Your error contaminated my spelling. Doctor Philastus Hurlbut.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Uncle Dale »

rcrocket wrote:Aw; guilt by association...



Let's revisit my question to you:

Imagine a person who walked into your house today, claiming to hear
disembodied voices, telling him what to do -- who claimed to hold the
keys to the final dispensation of the Christian gospel, who wanted to talk
to you about the time his daddy dug up the body of his elder brother and
how his own son is an inmate in a mental institution.

Perhaps that is just the sort of person you would automatically feel good
about, believe, and place your confidence in. But would you expect that
none of the rest of us would take the trouble to question his sanity?


Add to that, a few more details regarding the visitor to your house --

He asserts that he should be made President of a country in which every
member state forbids bigamy and adultery, and yet he also asserts his
right to have many, many sexual partners.

He tells you that God Almighty has chosen William Smith to be a latter
day special witness for Jesus Christ -- and that their buddy Brigham has
ordained that fellow Patriarch to the LDS Church.

At what point do you admit that we non-Mormons have a reasonable
right to inquire into this visitor's mental stability?

Must I go on -- to his claiming to have been crowned King of the world
by a secret council of fifty conspirators against the US Government?

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_harmony
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _harmony »

Uncle Dale wrote:Must I go on -- to his claiming to have been crowned King of the world
by a secret council of fifty conspirators against the US Government?

UD


Or that he'd done more for mankind than any save Jesus Christ?

Good to see you again, Unka Dale.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Uncle Dale
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Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Uncle Dale »

harmony wrote:....
Or that he'd done more for mankind than any save Jesus Christ?
...


Whether or not Smith voiced that claim personally, I know not.
He was accused of such things -- and John Taylor made such a
heaven-daring assertion; but possibly Smith is innocent on that one.

The Church of Christ Temple Lot declares Smith a fallen prophet,
who could not be trusted even so early as 1835. The RLDS have
generally extended his valid prophetship into the early 1840s.

So, even the latter day saints who reject him in his last years,
still cling to the witness that Smith was trustworthy early on.

I think that my cut-off date will have to be before the 1840s --
and before 1835. And the year 1830 is still too late a date.
Maybe 1826 would work for me..... or, better yet, 1823.

Show me what Smith was professing back in 1822, and perhaps
I can begin to trust him then.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
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Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Re: Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

Post by _Uncle Dale »

rcrocket wrote:Aw; guilt by association
...


Let's close this discussion off with one final detail.

You have listened patiently to this visitor in your living room,
while he rambled through his implausible catalog of claims.

And now -- at the end -- he wants to swear you to secrecy.
He wants you to promise not to tell the rest of us many of
the details he has disclosed to you -- because, as he says,
we will "persecute" both you and him, if we are ever told.

His final words to you -- "This is the same terrible persecution
that arose against me, almost in my infancy."

In other words, he has been making similar unbelievable,
demonstrably insane claims, since he first learned to talk...

...this whispering visitor in your living room.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
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