Westridge & Other Schools(Formerly LDS Perceptions thread)

[_rcrocket]

Bluff, bluff and more bluff.

[_harmony]

For me, I'm not focusing on this because the behavior of children in these facilities is irrelevant to my opinion of institutions;

And yet in this case, the behavior of the 15 year old prior to his being institutionalized is what landed him in the institution. A relevant fact, I think. And certainly one of importance in judging the actions of all concerned.

I do not think sending a child away from their home for years on end for "soft to moderate" behavioral problems is a good solution, or appropriate, especially knowing some of the practices and techniques used at this particular facility.

We only have one side of that particular equation, TD. I think it's highly doubtful that the other side would agree with the assessment of the home situation and GoodK's behavior within that environment that has been shared here. And I'm surprised that you, with your inate sense of fair play, are willing to second guess and condemn the parents without ever hearing their side of the story.

Fair is fair. We can't make any sort of judgment with just one side represented.

Now, I get that teenagers can be difficult and I get that parents get frustrated but in my opinion these sorts of facilities are not the answer.

And yet we do not know the parents' side of the story. So how can we know what the answer is? And how can we judge the parents' actions, when we don't know anything about the situation except through the eyes of a rebellious 15 year old?

Having said this, I do agree that there are children who "learn the system" of these institution and can survive better than others. It is no doubt true that if GoodK "played the game" he would have been better off in some respects, still I don't think institutions and this form of "treatment" are the way to go.

So noted. Also noted: we don't know the whole story.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Harmony,

I believe parents who send their children to institutions do so because of the claims and sale pitch of the facilities. I think parents believe the institutions are the only way their children will be "saved".

I'm not saying every parent who sends their child to an institution is a horrible parent, but I do think most are desperate and frustrated and when they hear the sales pitch, they feel hope, maybe for the first time in a while.

My beef is not with the parents (at least most of them) but with the institutions themselves.

I think these types of institutions exist to make money not to really help children and families. They make all sorts of claims but as far as I know, there is no research to back up their techniques or methods.

I do realize there are two sides to every story, and haven't for one minute thought that there were no problems in the family or that GoodK's behavior was stellar, not at all. But, for me, it doesn't matter what a child does or how a child behaves, (unless of course the law is involved), sending them away to an institution for years on end is not the best solution, in my opinion.

~td~

[_marg]

I believe parents who send their children to institutions do so because of the claims and sale pitch of the facilities. .....


I think these types of institutions exist to make money not to really help children and families. They make all sorts of claims but as far as I know, there is no research to back up their techniques or methods.

To add further comment T.D. the private resdidential institutions have a one approach when it comes to taking youth out of their home and environment for an extended period of time, they are not interested in treatment of youth in the home, nor are they even interested in returning youth to home as soon as possible.

As the saying goes...if the only tool you have is a hammer it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.

So every parent who contacts them with a teen who is going through a rebellious stage the only solution this school and those similar to it know and want to know is to take the child into their facility away from home.

This contrasts with how the government operates, in that it is interested in juvenile offenders being treated effectively but also at least cost. So they are willing to research and consider other alternatives than the one approach residential treatment facilities offer which is to incarcerate youth. What they are finding is that the most effective, and lowest cost treatment is to provide services in the home environment which work with the family to provide the skills necessary to deal with the issues.

There are problems with putting rebellious youth in facilities..it stigmatizes them, and they are likely to learn anti-social behaviors from other peers there and they are likely to indentify with deliquency. In addition it's normal for teen to be rebellious and most typically grow out of it, but putting them in an institutions deters the natural outgrowth that most go through.

[_Yoda]

What they are finding is that the most effective, and lowest cost treatment is to provide services in the home environment which work with the family to provide the skills necessary to deal with the issues.

I think this is an excellent idea. I would much rather see my tax dollars going toward something like this.

Are there programs like this currently being spearheaded in Canada, Marg, or is this something you have read about that is happening in the US?

[_harmony]

I believe parents who send their children to institutions do so because of the claims and sale pitch of the facilities. .....


I think these types of institutions exist to make money not to really help children and families. They make all sorts of claims but as far as I know, there is no research to back up their techniques or methods.

To add further comment T.D. the private resdidential institutions have a one approach when it comes to taking youth out of their home and environment for an extended period of time, they are not interested in treatment of youth in the home, nor are they even interested in returning youth to home as soon as possible.

As the saying goes...if the only tool you have is a hammer it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.

So every parent who contacts them with a teen who is going through a rebellious stage the only solution this school and those similar to it know and want to know is to take the child into their facility away from home.

This contrasts with how the government operates, in that it is interested in juvenile offenders being treated effectively but also at least cost. So they are willing to research and consider other alternatives than the one approach residential treatment facilities offer which is to incarcerate youth. What they are finding is that the most effective, and lowest cost treatment is to provide services in the home environment which work with the family to provide the skills necessary to deal with the issues.

There are problems with putting rebellious youth in facilities..it stigmatizes them, and they are likely to learn anti-social behaviors from other peers there and they are likely to indentify with deliquency. In addition it's normal for teen to be rebellious and most typically grow out of it, but putting them in an institutions deters the natural outgrowth that most go through.

I suspect that my idea of what is tolerable rebellion in a teenager and your idea of what is tolerable rebellion are not at all in the same ballpark, marg.

As I've stated several times, we have 2 youth ranches and 1 government run boot camp within an hour of my home. None of the youth involved were model citizens prior to their arrival. The vast majority of them reap many benefits from their experience. So don't paint all facilities of this type with same broad condemnatory brush.

While there may be huge issues with the methods of the Utah ranch, no one gets put there without having exhibited behaviors which caused the parents to break down and send them. It all comes back to the personal responsibility of the youth. If they're behaving within boundaries set by the parents, they don't get shipped off to places like that ranch. Anti-social behaviors will result in extreme consequences. No one escapes that, not even GoodK.

And it's not like it's a cheap alternative to minor infractions like a kid breaking curfew. These facilities are expensive and only the most incorrigible youth find their way there. GoodK is lucky his parents are well-to-do enough to be able to support the monthly fee; he could have been kicked out of the house and left to fend for himself. Somehow I don't think he's grateful, though.

[_marg]

Are there programs like this currently being spearheaded in Canada, Marg, or is this something you have read about that is happening in the US?

Yes I believe a company created the program and that it's been around for about 25 years and used in many countries. It's called multisystemic therapy or MST and the research is that it is a better more effective option than incarcerating youth for deliquency who aren't hardened serious criminals. Later I'll find a link and post it, with more details on the program.

Governments worldwide are using it including the U.S. but of course not private residential places because ..they aren't in that business of delivering in home treatment plans. West Ridge is affiliated with other similar for profit businesses...a wilderness program facility and a for profit residential treatment facility. So they are definitely operating to make money and apparently are structuring their businesses to operate like the LDS church..with their for profit businesses donating to their charity.. West Ridge.

[_marg]

Harmony I've been reading your posts and you sound like you don't know what the hell you are talking about and in addition have an axe to grind, so forgive me if I ignore you, at least for the time being. I will later post about MST as well as research findings of the effects of incarcerating youth.

[_harmony]

No one becomes a juvenile delinquent unless they are indulging in illegal activity, marg. In order to be delinquent, one must have done something illegal. Anyone convicted of a crime is a criminal, by definition. So... a juvenile who is deliquent is, by definition, a criminal.

Perhaps you should read up on some of the relevant case law, so you know which words to use.

Unless I'm seriously mistaken (which is entirely possible because I got bored long ago with the exchange between you and Jersey, and Lord knows GoodK has an axe to grind), none of the residents of the ranch in question is or was a juvenile delinquent. Which doesn't mean they shouldn't have been classified that way; that just means they hadn't gotten caught yet, so the nomenclature doesn't apply to them.

[_harmony]

Harmony I've been reading your posts and you sound like you don't know what the hell you are talking about and in addition have an axe to grind, so forgive me if I ignore you, at least for the time being. I will later post about MST as well as research findings of the effects of incarcerating youth.

Gosh, marg... let's see...

My first career was as a parole officer.

My second career was as a high school guidance counselor.

My bachelor's degree is in Sociology. My master's is in Counseling Psychology. I am a licensed counselor in my state. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't know my stuff, marg.

Oh, and I have 8 children, 6 of them boys. I lived this, marg. It seems to me that if I remember correctly, you have a couple of daughters... no sons?

I don't much care if you think I know what I'm talking about or not. You've proven exactly how much you know about the practical application of personal responsibility to parenting rebellious teenagers over and over again. It can be measured by a scant thimble.

Those who can, do. Those who can't look it up on the internet.