Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

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_Brackite
_Emeritus
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Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

Post by _Brackite »

Thanks, For the attempted Response, Rcrocket. However, the 'Chaldeans' anachronism is a lot more Problematic in the Book of Abraham, than it is in the Book of Genesis. Here is Genesis Chapter 11, Verses 28 and 31:

Genesis 11:28 & 31: (New King James Version):

28 And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans.

...

31 And Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife, and they went out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan; and they came to Haran and dwelt there.



Here is a Web Site Page about the 'Chaldeans' anachronism in the Book of Genesis:

2 Abraham’s Lifestyle

2.1 City Dweller. Scripture is silent about the details of Abraham’s life before he entered Canaan. Genesis 11:28 states that he was born in Ur of the Chaldeans, an important Sumerian city. The reference to "chaldeans" is probably anachronistic as the Chaldeans did not arrive in Assyria until about 1,000 BC (Wenhan, 1987: 272).

...

3.2 Alleged Anachronisms. The presence of anachronistic references has long be used a test for its dating. One example, the reference to Ur "of the Chaldeas" has already been noted above (2.1) and indicates the work of an editor’s efforts to clarify the exact location for a later audience. Edwin Yamauchi makes an important point concerning such deliberate substitutions:

...it is a universal practice for later editors or translators to make updated substitutions which are quite necessary to make certain items clear to later readers without elaborate circumlocutions. It would be quite captious to place these deliberate substitutions in the same incriminating heading as erroneous anachronisms (Yamauchi, 1973: 35).


( Link: http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_abraham.html )



Joseph Smith Greatly Magnified the 'Chaldeans' anachronism within the Book of Abraham. Here is (again) Abraham Chapter One, Verses 13 and 14:

Abraham 1:13-14:

13 It was made after the form of a bedstead, such as was had among the Chaldeans, and it stood before the gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and also a god like unto that of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.
14 That you may have an understanding of these gods, I have given you the fashion of them in the figures at the beginning, which manner of figures is called by the Chaldeans Rahleenos, which signifies hieroglyphics.



The Greater Problem here, is that an altar is described as being "such as was had among" a People who did not yet exist.

Now, here is Abraham Chapter One, Verse 23:

Abraham 1:23:

23 The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;



And, Here is this information:

Egyptus — Abr. 1:23: "The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden." Stephen E. Thompson: "First, Egyptus is not a Chaldean word, but Greek, and does not mean 'forbidden' in any language. The Greek "Egyptus" apparently derives from Egyptian hwt-k3-pth, "the house of the ka of Ptah," which was the name of a temple of Ptah in Memphis. During the New Kingdom, this term came to designate the town of Memphis, the capital of Egypt, in which the temple was located. Also there is some evidence that foreigners referred to the country of Egypt by this term as is attested in a Mycenaean Linear B tablet from Knossos, which is usually dated to around 1375 BC, i.e., 125 years after Abraham, as a man's name, presupposing that it was already a name for Egypt. Note also that the text (Abr. 1:22-25) implies that Egypt derived its name from an eponymous ancestor, Egyptus. Given the facts concerning the origin of the word Egyptus, however, this cannot represent historical reality."6

...

6. Stephen E. Thompson, "Egyptology and the Book of Abraham", Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1995, pp. 155-156


( Link: http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_8.html )
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_rcrocket

Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

Post by _rcrocket »

I continue to note that my challenge to Brackite goes unmet. Here it is again:

Is Abraham a real person? If so, when did he live? Proof?
_karl61
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

Post by _karl61 »

Makes sense: Babylon had it's on creation tales and history and the Jews wanted one too and more likely wanted to one up those in Babylon. Kind of supports the theory that the Hebrew Bible was started in captivity.
I want to fly!
_rcrocket

Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

Post by _rcrocket »

karl61 wrote:Makes sense: Babylon had it's on creation tales and history and the Jews one too and more likely wanted to one up those in Babylon. Kind of supports the theory that the Hebrew Bible was started in captivity.


What an original theory that is! Oh my goodness. You are a genius.
_karl61
_Emeritus
Posts: 2983
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

Post by _karl61 »

just repeating what I read - at least I will admit that :biggrin:
I want to fly!
_rcrocket

Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

Post by _rcrocket »

Is that an 800 VFR in your photo? I have one.
_Brackite
_Emeritus
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:12 am

Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

Post by _Brackite »

rcrocket wrote:I continue to note that my challenge to Brackite goes unmet. Here it is again:

Is Abraham a real person? If so, when did he live? Proof?



Yes, Abraham was probably a real Person.


From The LDS Old Testament Student Manual
(Genesis – 2 Samuel):


To spread the gospel blessings abroad, the Lord has centered his work in a people specially chosen for the task. At first this people were the righteous Saints who followed Adam, Enoch, and the other faithful patriarchs. Around 2000 B.C. Abraham was selected to head this covenant race from that time forward. God, on His part, promised to make Abraham the “father of many nations” and to give the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed “for an everlasting possession” (Genesis 17:4, 8). “And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee” (Genesis 17:7).


( Link: http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/ot-i ... lindex.asp , Bold Emphasis Mine. )





From The Abraham, Wikipedia Article:

Dating and historicity


Traditional dating

According to calculations directly derived from the Masoretic Hebrew Torah, Abraham was born 1,948 years after biblical creation and lived for 175 years (Genesis 25:7), which would correspond to a life spanning from 1812 BCE to 1637 BCE by Jewish dating. The figures in the Book of Jubilees have Abraham born 1,876 years after creation, and 534 years before the Exodus; the ages provided in the Samaritan version of Genesis agree closely with those of Jubilees before the Deluge, but after the Deluge, they add roughly 100 years to each of the ages of the Patriarchs in the Masoretic Text, resulting in the figure of 2,247 years after creation for Abraham's birth. The Greek Septuagint version adds around 100 years to nearly all of the patriarchs' births, producing the even higher figure of 3,312 years after creation for Abraham's birth.

Other interpretations of Biblical chronology place Abraham's birth at 2008 AM (Anno Mundi). In Genesis 11:32 : Abraham was the youngest son of Terah who died in Haran aged 205, in year 2083 AM. In Gen.12:4 we learn that at that time Abraham was 75 years old. In other words Abraham was born when his father Terah was 130 years old. (205-75 = 130). Therefore Abraham was born in year 2008 AM.

History of dating attempts

When cuneiform was first deciphered, Theophilus Pinches translated some Babylonian tablets which were part of the Spartoli collection in the British Museum. In particular, he believed he found in the Chedorlaomer Text, currently thought to have been written in the 6th to the 7th century BCE, the names of three of the kings of the Eastern coalition fighting against the five kings from the Vale of Siddim in Gen. 14:1. This is the only part of Genesis which seems to set Abraham in a context of wider political history, and the idea of many 19th/early 20th century exegetes and assyriologists was that it seemed to offer an opening to date Abraham, if the kings in question could only be identified. In 1887, Schrader then was the first to propose that Amraphel could be an alternate spelling for Hammurabi (cf. the ISBE of 1915, s.v. "Hammurabi").


( Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham )





From Chapter 8 - The Text of the Book of Abraham:

In other words, if we accept that Abraham lived sometime between 2200 B.C.E. and 1500 B.C.E. (again, our Bible Dictionary places his birth at 1996 B.C.E.), then there shouldn't be anything within its pages that could only be known to someone living after that point.



( Link: http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_8.html )
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_karl61
_Emeritus
Posts: 2983
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

Post by _karl61 »

rcrocket wrote:Is that an 800 VFR in your photo? I have one.



no it's a cbr600 (I think) but just found it on an avatar site:

This is my bike:

http://www.hyosungmotorsusa.com/product ... del=GT250R

I've only had it for a month. I'm Still breaking it in.

I already know my next bike will be a Ducati Super Sport - likely get it in a year or so.


I just started riding.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 12, 2009 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
I want to fly!
_Danna

Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

Post by _Danna »

Thanks for your posts Brackite and CK; CK, I think you have described the best possible apologetic response, and John W did a way better job than me of laying out the problem. The current focus on Olishem is a red-herring I think. Even if someone found a signpost saying "Plain of Olishem" that does not explain why JSjr elaborated so much on the Chaldeans.

When I first looked at this online (in about 1999) an article on FAIR attempted to establish that the Hebrew word for Chaldeans, 'Kaldu', was the same as the modern 'Kurd', thus Abraham's Chaldeans were Kurds. It didn't take much digging around to establish that the link was nonsense. Another article claimed that Ur was located in Lebanon. Both articles have completely disappeared of course - I had them printed out, but wouldn't have a clue where they are now. I am sure these arguments would be denied now.

As to trying to place Abraham 1000 years later. That would pretty much trash the Old Testament. Abraham, and all thereafter would appear within the period of history for which there is increasing external documentation of significant people and events.
http://scriptures.LDS.org/en/bd/chrono

I no longer think that there is any reason to believe that Abraham is a real person. From my reading on this, it was politically expedient, during the exile, to claim that Hebrew ancestors came from Mesopotamia, and possibly even the Chaldeans in particular. Josephus would have drawn on tradition elaborating on the Bible.

The almost complete lack of apologetic response is fast becoming more interesting than the blatant JSjr borrowing of a biblical anachronism. (bcspace excluded, but even then he only addressed the Olishem red herring).
_Brackite
_Emeritus
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:12 am

Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.

Post by _Brackite »

Danna wrote:
Thanks for your posts Brackite and CK; CK, I think you have described the best possible apologetic response, and John W did a way better job than me of laying out the problem. The current focus on Olishem is a red-herring I think. Even if someone found a signpost saying "Plain of Olishem" that does not explain why JSjr elaborated so much on the Chaldeans.

When I first looked at this online (in about 1999) an article on FAIR attempted to establish that the Hebrew word for Chaldeans, 'Kaldu', was the same as the modern 'Kurd', thus Abraham's Chaldeans were Kurds. It didn't take much digging around to establish that the link was nonsense. Another article claimed that Ur was located in Lebanon. Both articles have completely disappeared of course - I had them printed out, but wouldn't have a clue where they are now. I am sure these arguments would be denied now.

As to trying to place Abraham 1000 years later. That would pretty much trash the Old Testament. Abraham, and all thereafter would appear within the period of history for which there is increasing external documentation of significant people and events.
http://scriptures.LDS.org/en/bd/chrono

I no longer think that there is any reason to believe that Abraham is a real person. From my reading on this, it was politically expedient, during the exile, to claim that Hebrew ancestors came from Mesopotamia, and possibly even the Chaldeans in particular. Josephus would have drawn on tradition elaborating on the Bible.

The almost complete lack of apologetic response is fast becoming more interesting than the blatant JSjr borrowing of a biblical anachronism. (bcspace excluded, but even then he only addressed the Olishem red herring).



Hello Danna,

To tell You the truth, I am not really sure if Abraham was a real Person or not. However, if Abraham was a real Person, then he lived sometime between 2,300 B.C.E. and 1,500 B.C.E.
Here is a Link to a Web Site Page, that has a debate on whether or not Abraham really existed:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/c/e/cek1227/AT2.htm
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
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