Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Sethbag »

Kevin Graham wrote:This is why I always try to make the distinction between theism and creatonism. The vast majority of theists have no problems with evolution.

Which is kind of funny, because they should. I guess they sidestep it either through apathy, or else handwaving exercises.

About the only theism out there that doesn't need to be concerned about evolution is the most absolutely meaningless forms, like "I believe in some higher power, and that's about all I can say".
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Kevin Graham »

It's getting published in Nature tomorrow. I don't think it gets any more prestigious than that.

The only objection mentioned in the article was also rebutted in the article.


So?

The Miller-Urey experiment was first publshed in Science, which is nothing to sneeze at either.

Just last month I picked up Discover Magazine at the airport in Recife and the front page said "Universe built for life," or something to that effect. A month before that there was another science magazine - I forget the name - and its main article, advertised on the front page, dealt with our moon and how it has to be exactly as it is for our existence. And yet you reject the fine-tuned argument, despite evidence published in various science magazines.

All I am saying is that we should see how this thing plays itself out, because the author doesn't seem nearly as confident in this conclusion as you do. But go ahead and accept it as scientific fact if you need to.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Sethbag wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:This is why I always try to make the distinction between theism and creatonism. The vast majority of theists have no problems with evolution.

Which is kind of funny, because they should.

Tell that to Francis Collins. (It's too late to tell it to Theodosius Dobzhansky.)
_JohnStuartMill
_Emeritus
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:12 pm

Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

Kevin Graham wrote:
It's getting published in Nature tomorrow. I don't think it gets any more prestigious than that.

The only objection mentioned in the article was also rebutted in the article.


So?

The Miller-Urey experiment was first publshed in Science, which is nothing to sneeze at either.

Just last month I picked up Discover Magazine at the airport in Recife and the front page said "Universe built for life," or something to that effect. A month before that there was another science magazine - I forget the name - and its main article, advertised on the front page, dealt with our moon and how it has to be exactly as it is for our existence. And yet you reject the fine-tuned argument, despite evidence published in various science magazines.
The fact that the universe is compatible with life is not evidence for the supernatural. How many times do I have to go over the anthropic fallacy with you?

You're not special. Get over it.

All I am saying is that we should see how this thing plays itself out, because the author doesn't seem nearly as confident in this conclusion as you do. But go ahead and accept it as scientific fact if you need to.
The scientist is skeptical that this is the pathway from pre-biotic chemistry to RNA, not that it is a plausible one.
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_JohnStuartMill
_Emeritus
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:12 pm

Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Sethbag wrote:Which is kind of funny, because they should.

Tell that to Francis Collins. (It's too late to tell it to Theodosius Dobzhansky.)

Evolution is in direct contradiction to the Scriptures considered by the vast majority of theists* to be the Word of God. How do you reconcile the fact of evolution with Genesis, or with the 1909 First Presidency statement that evolution is merely a "theor[y] of men"?

*The real vast majority of theists, not the "vast majority of theists" that Kevin conjured out of thin air who have "no problem" with evolution. At least 50% of theists disbelieve in evolution, probably more.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/Evolut ... esign.aspx
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Sethbag »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Sethbag wrote:Which is kind of funny, because they should.

Tell that to Francis Collins. (It's too late to tell it to Theodosius Dobzhansky.)

I am sure someone's already beat me to it, but Collins himself should really know better - he needs nobody to explain anything about this to him. There is no guarantee that even a very smart person will always view things rationally. Francis Collins has surrendered to a particular irrational idea, and I don't see him changing his mind on it. It's his right. Oh well.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Kevin Graham »

You're completely missing the point. (You do this so often that you should change your name to "Completely Missing the Point.) The whole argument for Intelligent Design/fine-tuning relies on there being no possible materialistic explanation for a phenomenon. (Arguments against Mormonism do not need to meet this standard.) As such, finding a plausible mechanism defeats the argument.


But you have not found a plausible mechanism for everything. You constantly misunderstand the broader picture, which makes it frustrating arguing with you. Any argument that says an intelligence is not responsible for life on earth, must address all of what science tells us not just the parts you like to focus on for quick points. If you want to go back, then why stop at 3.8 billion years? Let's go back all the way to the beginning of nature itself. From the atheistic perspective, the universe came into existence because a chunk of matter became so hot and dense that it exploded. Unguided of course. And all the subsequent laws that were written, came about by accident. As did our galaxy, or distance from the sun, the pecise strengths of the nuclear forces, gravity, etc. None of that was by design, even though it is all mathematically tied together. No. It was all a cosmic accident that just turned out to work in our favor.

You have the unpleasant burden of trying to prove how life came from a chunk fo hot matter. Proponents of abiogenesis haven't even begun to explain this.

Well, I'm surprised that you haven't, given your predilection for invoking supernatural agents to explain other phenomena that don't require it


You're showing the weakness of your position by having to resort to these kinds of games. You know very well this is not true. Again, this is a page out of Dawkins.
I don't have a problem with theists. I have a problem with s****y arguments. That's why I can't stand Intelligent Design morons, and that's why you're on the receiving end of a lot of my ire.


No, you're actng like a typical bigot. I do not come here to criticize atheists for being atheists. In fact I beleve I have stated on numerous occasions that I find it hard to fault them for their positions. By contrast, you have no tolerance for those who believe things you do not. You're constantly tryng to pick a fight. But I realize now just how young you are, cocky and full of beans.

Naturalism of the gaps is extraordinarily well-supported, Kevin. We've looked under millions of rocks, found naturalism under each one, and God under none.


Except nobody has claimed God hides under a rock. Here you go again with the silly Dawkins approach, insisting on misrepresenting your opponent's position at all costs.

If naturalism of the gaps was supported, then there would be no gaps to begin with. Everything would have a naturalstic explanation. But we know everything doesn't have a naturalistc explanation. Your hope that eventually everything will, is no different than an LDS apologist claiming one day we will find Zarahemla in Brasil.

Then what's your problem?


Militant atheists who think they can use science to disprove God.

The idea that we exist because some dense matter exploded, and after blind natural forces had churned over the course of 11.2 billion years, and after a primordal soup encountered some electricity, lfe sprung forth in a Frankenstein kinda way. I don't think you fully appreciate just how complex the simplest cell really is. To show that amino acids could be produced by the natural forces of the universe, is far from substantiating abogenesis. This is like saying the winds of Egypt have produced perfectly round balls of sand, therefore given enough time, we should expect it to produce a pin-ball machine.

By the way, good job in luring me into this. But I will stick to what I said, and wait until I get back to my personal library before getting deeper into this subject. Until then, yes, you're still prettier than me. :cool:
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Evolution is in direct contradiction to the Scriptures considered by the vast majority of theists* to be the Word of God.


Yes, but most of whom are leaning towards a more figurative/metaphorical understanding of it. I tend to let these religions speak for themselves on this point, but maybe that's just a crazy idea.


*The real vast majority of theists, not the "vast majority of theists" that Kevin conjured out of thin air who have "no problem" with evolution. At least 50% of theists disbelieve in evolution, probably more.


But like most average people, including atheists, most theists don't understand evolution. You'd be surprised how many truly don't understand it. Many people think evolution is a theory sayng we came from apes, and that is it. They reject it based on intuition alone, and not because of anything a religious leader says.
_Ray A

Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Ray A »

I'm not going to be engaging in any lengthy debates on this subject, but I thought I'd inject a statement from Dawkins in his Time debate with Francis Collins. I know Dawkins has favoured abiogenesis, but I'd like to know what he means by the following statment I've placed in bold:

DAWKINS: My mind is not closed, as you have occasionally suggested, Francis. My mind is open to the most wonderful range of future possibilities, which I cannot even dream about, nor can you, nor can anybody else. What I am skeptical about is the idea that whatever wonderful revelation does come in the science of the future, it will turn out to be one of the particular historical religions that people happen to have dreamed up. When we started out and we were talking about the origins of the universe and the physical constants, I provided what I thought were cogent arguments against a supernatural intelligent designer. But it does seem to me to be a worthy idea. Refutable--but nevertheless grand and big enough to be worthy of respect. I don't see the Olympian gods or Jesus coming down and dying on the Cross as worthy of that grandeur. They strike me as parochial. If there is a God, it's going to be a whole lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any theologian of any religion has ever proposed.


So Dawkins is open to the idea of "some kind of God"???
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Dawkins thinks it is "plausible" that aliens came to earth billions of years ago and planted life here. Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of DNA came up with this idea because he could not conceive the possibility that life originated on earth by natural means.
Post Reply