Presentism and the Persecutors of the Early Saints

[_Sethbag]

I couldn't find it that nancy led the mob...

I'm not sure who ever said it was Nancy. I said it was believed to have been Nancy's brother Eli.

[_JohnStuartMill]

Are we guilty of presentism when we condemn those mobs and vigilantes and purveyors of "frontier justice" that gave the early members of the Church such a hard time? These were, after all, simply men of their time, place, and culture. It would be intellectually dishonest to hold them to the enlightened standards of our day.

Right?

Actually, presentism exists on this board only when it favors the critics. But yes, you guys are guilty of presentism on this board. And many are guilty of shock and awe presentism: Hey...!!! Lookie here....Joseph did that and Joseph did this....And BY did that and said that...golley the church ain't't true. type of posts.

Well, from some of those, it actually does deductively follow that the Church isn't true.

P1: When they are speaking as such, prophets of God do not say anything untrue.
P2: If the President of a Church is not a true prophet, then the Church is not true.
P3: Brigham Young, the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was speaking as a prophet of God when he said that the penalty for interracial marriage would always be death on the spot.
P4: The penalty for interracial marriage is not currently death on the spot.

C1: Brigham Young said something untrue while speaking as a prophet of God. (P3, P4)
C2: Brigham Young was not a prophet of God. (C1, P1)
C3: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not true. (C2, P2)

[_Ray A]

Actually, presentism exists on this board only when it favors the critics. But yes, you guys are guilty of presentism on this board. And many are guilty of shock and awe presentism: Hey...!!! Lookie here....Joseph did that and Joseph did this....And BY did that and said that...golley the church ain't't true. type of posts.

The Church doesn't have a monopoly on truth. 3 Ne. 27:

10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.

Frankly, your defense of polygamy sickens me. Do you see the above verses? Oh no, you will never believe that God could actually reject "the Church". That's just not possible in your thinking or vocabulary. But according to the Book of Mormon - God can reject the Church, and will if it's necessary.

I'll go as far as saying that all of the opposition the Church has, it has brought upon itself is because of adhering to "abominations". Breaking the hearts of innocent women and children by legalising adultery.

You, why me, cut such a pathetic figure here. A Catholic who defends abominations. I hope your parrish priest knows what you defend. You must have been raised in a different Catholicism to what I was.

[_Ray A]

But was nancy unhappy as a Mormon.

If you had some pervert tell you, "happiness is the purpose and design of existence", to get your clothes off, what would you think?

You constantly turn blame away from Joseph, onto the women he tried to seduce.

You really make me feel ill, sometimes.

[_moksha]

I said it was believed to have been Nancy's brother Eli.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/6552/nancyhyde.htm

[_Mary]

In the context of Joseph's sexual history, and given that Eli (likely) lead a mob to tar and feather, and castrate him (which suggests strongly a sexual element to the grievance) allegedly for sexual meddling with his sister, do you really have much reason to be skeptical of this motive?

Sethbag, for me, this is the strongest evidence (along with the known fact that Joseph later took Nancy as a polyandrous wife) that the tarring and feathering involved a supposed 'sexual' crime.

They didn't try and castrate Sidney Rigdon at this time. Only Joseph. I suppose that a faith promoting approach would say that Joseph had been commanded to be polygamous from as early as the occurance with Fanny Alger.

I tend to go with the idea that Joseph took the scriptures seriously (just as I believe he did with the Grandison Newell story, where his (though botched) assassination would be justified by the Laban story in the Book of Mormon). He saw that Abraham was able (through Sarah) to take Hagar to wife to produce offspring, and felt that this was justification to take Fanny. (and perhaps later Nancy)

That's my take anyway.

Mary

[_why me]

The Church doesn't have a monopoly on truth. 3 Ne. 27:

10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.
12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.

Frankly, your defense of polygamy sickens me. Do you see the above verses? Oh no, you will never believe that God could actually reject "the Church". That's just not possible in your thinking or vocabulary. But according to the Book of Mormon - God can reject the Church, and will if it's necessary.

I'll go as far as saying that all of the opposition the Church has, it has brought upon itself is because of adhering to "abominations". Breaking the hearts of innocent women and children by legalising adultery.

You, why me, cut such a pathetic figure here. A Catholic who defends abominations. I hope your parrish priest knows what you defend. You must have been raised in a different Catholicism to what I was.

There is also another interpretation. The persecutions were Satanic in origin. Satan hardened the hearts of men and women and they attacked the LDS church. But through perseverance and fortitude the early saints overcame adversity and truimphed. I think that that is a better understanding than your interpretation. Why?

Because, the LDS church has prospered against all adversity. And god has shown favor towards it.

I take the side of early polygamous men and women because they do need defending. I think that the accusations against Joseph Smith are unproven.


I tend to be undogmatic in my outlook toward Mormonism and catholicism and that makes all the difference. Also, since Joseph Smith has been attacked by you and others and the women who were sealed to him seem to be defended by the critics, not the marriages but their plight,on this forum, I atttempt to show a different view.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... s_polygamy

[_why me]

I couldn't find it that nancy led the mob...

I'm not sure who ever said it was Nancy. I said it was believed to have been Nancy's brother Eli.

I missed read your comma. It was never confirmed that Joseph Smith tried something with Nancy. And nancy does not seem to verify her brother's claim. I see no evidence of her involvement with Joseph Smith at that time.

[_why me]

We may not have the soiled dress, Why Me, or the first-hand testimony of Joseph or Marinda saying that they definitely did or did not associate inappropriately. But do you think that Eli, if indeed he really did lead that mob, acted in a vacuum?

Exactly...we do not have the soiled dress or a complaint by Nancy. And that makes all the difference. And we do not have first hand testimony either...and that makes all the difference.

I think that Eli and the others were Mormon haters. Period. Now if Eli had a problem he did not need a mob to help him. Just take Joe out and thrash him. But the antimormon mob was itching for a fight and it shows a lot of antimormon feelings in the community. They would have tarred Joseph Smith for any reason or excuse. But the proof of involvement is lacking. Now Joseph Smith did receive help from the saints after the bruising and the mob was shocked when he appeared to speak the next day.

And most likely he could not keep the mob secret from the early saints. And if he and nancy were getting antsy, she did not admit it and so she would have lied also.

I tend to think that the early saints heard the rumors and innuendos.

[_John Larsen]

Ah, yes, it was Nancy Marinda Johnson, and her brother Eli is supposed to have led the mob that tarred and feathered Joseph. They brought along a doctor, who was supposed to castrate Joseph, but in the end he declined to do it.

Interestingly, ten years or so later Joseph Smith "married" Nancy Marinda, now married to Apostle Orson Hyde, two years into his three-year mission to Palestine.

How about that? Joseph sends a guy on a mission, and while he's gone he "marries" and boinks his wife.

Oh yeah, but the Creator of the Universe wanted him to. That means it must have been OK.

Not only did Joseph "marry" her, but she was also living with Willard Richards during part of the time--openly. It was a wild time for a while there.