Why Does Runtu Hate His Former Faith So Much?

[_Runtu]

I do not "malign the Mormons." Give it a rest, Bob.

I suppose not, but you do malign the founder (restorer) of our religion.

I wonder what Muslims would think if one said similar things about Muhammed, Buddhists about Siddhattha Gotama, or Jews about Moses. Even leaving it at modern leaders doesn't seem to make it any better. I wonder what Catholics would think if one said similar things about their popes.

I would hope that if there were evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the respective religious leader, members might respond by arguing whether the allegations are correct or not instead of aiming empty criticism of the "maligner" who brought it up. That Bob would rather go after me than explain why I am "full of crap" says quite a bit.

I'm not accusing you of hating Mormons, but I find the allegations unconvincing and as such I think they should be left unsaid. Investigated? Sure. Stated as fact? I don't think so.

That's as it should be, but it's not a personal moral failure to argue for that which you believe is true. Nor does accepting uncomfortable evidence make one a maligner.

[_asbestosman]

And you were lied to all your life by an organization that continues to deceive others.

Even if I do try to imagine that the church isn't true (seems very unlikely to me), even when I consider my own struggles with faith, I have never doubted that the leaders of the church genuinely believe and do not seek to lie to or deceive us.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

If I left the Fraternal Order of Eagles because I thought they were a bunch of alchoholic cultists, I'm not sure how meaningful my life would be spending days, hours and an eternity continuing to malign them, as Runtu does the Mormons. What a waste of life, of effort, of good will and good spirit.

But if Runtu's words help others, then they certainly are not a "waste." I think that's a primary purpose of bb's like this -- to help others by talking out issues that are of common concern. I know the words of Runtu and other posters have helped me over the years.

[_asbestosman]

You're still young. Maybe some of that coming criticism will tame Mormonism, just like it tamed Catholicism.

If I'm to believe some critics, it already has. Some critics claim it was responsible for lifting the priesthood ban for example. Others have claimed that it is responsible for changes in the temple ceremony. Some might even claim that it has also been tamed much since the days of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

[_Runtu]

And you were lied to all your life by an organization that continues to deceive others.

Even if I do try to imagine that the church isn't true (seems very unlikely to me), even when I consider my own struggles with faith, I have never doubted that the leaders of the church genuinely believe and do not seek to lie to or deceive us.

You know, I agree with that. I have met more than a few players in the church who don't believe the church is true but generally just use it for social and economic gain. But without exception, the leaders of the church I have known (I mean GA types) have all genuinely believed and practice the religion they believe.

I wish it was "very unlikely" that the church isn't true.

[_Kevin Graham]

Even if I do try to imagine that the church isn't true (seems very unlikely to me), even when I consider my own struggles with faith, I have never doubted that the leaders of the church genuinely believe and do not seek to lie to or deceive us.

Then how do you explain the fact that they hide crap all the time?

If I had known about what I know today, I never would have joined up and my life would be completely different. And they have to know this, which is why they train missionaries to avoid these kinds of controversial matters when asked. As Kevin Barney once said, it is "missionary malpractice" to baptize a black converts without at least mentioning the former priesthood ban. And that is just ONE issue among dozens.

The craziness is that it is justified by saying these things shouldn't matter to them, so it is OK to keep it from them. Well, how about giving them the chance to decide that for themselves, before they get sucked into all these "covenants" that they are made to feel guilty about years later when they end up leaving due to self-education.

Yeah yeah, I know, nobody ever leaves the Church due to knowledge or self-education. Its all about a desire to sin, right?

The fact is the Church has one of the worst apostasy rates of any Church, and it is no suprise. Not a single person I baptized (out of 33) is still active. People get excited about Mormonism in the beginning the same way they get excited and obsessed with pyramid scams. Eventually they get screwed when they come tor ealize their "trainer" wasn't telling him all he needed to know. Of course others go into denial and invoke this paradigm of evil vs. good that the Church has emblazed on their brains. You know, if you doubt, you're not in the spirit, and if you believe in spite of the evidence, you're super spiritual and will be blessed and treated accordingly. That has its own benefits in the Church, and some people prefer to live that way instead of worrying about truth and fiction.

[_Ray A]

If I'm to believe some critics, it already has. Some critics claim it was responsible for lifting the priesthood ban for example. Others have claimed that it is responsible for changes in the temple ceremony. Some might even claim that it has also been tamed much since the days of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

It has changed a lot since the days of Joseph Smith, the Council of Fifty, secret polygamy, open polygamy, MMM, isolated sect to statehood and "more American than Americans", etc.

It has undergone lots of changes due to what one writer called, "a willingness to accommodate". But it's a slow process. You'll eventually get there.

[_asbestosman]

Its all about a desire to sin, right?

Did I say that? No.
Do I think that? No.

I wonder though, why do you think people become atheists? For my part, I don't know, but I don't think it's because they want to sin. I don't think atheists are right either.

[_Kevin Graham]

Did I say that? No.
Do I think that? No.

Well the Encyclopedia of Mormonism does.

I wonder though, why do you think people become atheists? For my part, I don't know, but I don't think it's because they want to sin. I don't think atheists are right either.

People become atheists for personal reasons that vary on a case by case basis. In my experience they have had bad experiences with religions like Mormonism that strike them as completely fairy-talish. Mormonism is the other far end of the reason spectrum, with various other religious meeting somewhere in the middle. Mormonism basis its truthfulness on too many unlikely claims, and the membership becomes immune to critical thought because they like being in the group. It makes them feel good. It provides thing a human needs, love, a sense of identity, a sense of purpose, a social life, and sometimes even shelter and money. When people come to a knowledge of things that prove the church false, they have to engage in cost-benefit analyses. Essentially, do the positives outweigh the negatives. If so, then they stay. If not, they leave. But even if they stay, they remain unbelievers pretending to be. You'd be surprised how many people are like this.

Atheists seem to become impervious to spiritual thinking through self-innoculation and rely strictly on methodological naturalism as their new concept of reality. If it can't be proved or falsified, there is no reason to believe it.

You know, it really is sad that Joseph Smith wasn't what he claimed. I really wish he was, because the Church has much to offer people. But he wasn't, and that matters to me. I sometimes miss the church life, but I don't have the hypocrisy to keep going.

[_JohnStuartMill]

And you were lied to all your life by an organization that continues to deceive others.

Even if I do try to imagine that the church isn't true (seems very unlikely to me), even when I consider my own struggles with faith, I have never doubted that the leaders of the church genuinely believe and do not seek to lie to or deceive us.

I'm with asbestosman on this one. It strains credulity to say that the leaders of the Church are intentionally pulling a con.