I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
But, lest it should be supposed that I believe in many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.
It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive any thing more destructive to morality than this?....
Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet, as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.
Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.
Who said no one ever built a monument to a critic?
As were the leaders of the French Revolution; he was sympathetic to their cause. Look what happened there. Even he was arrested in its wake. He escaped with his life.
He was a nut job in his final days.
Basically, if you abandon the Mormon faith after knowing of its truth, you become an atheist, and then a nut job, and then a sociopath.
rcrocket wrote: Basically, if you abandon the Mormon faith after knowing of its truth, you become an atheist, and then a nut job, and then a sociopath.
Sounds like Bob's stirring the hornets' nest again.
rcrocket wrote:As were the leaders of the French Revolution; he was sympathetic to their cause. Look what happened there. Even he was arrested in its wake. He escaped with his life.
He was a nut job in his final days.
Basically, if you abandon the Mormon faith after knowing of its truth, you become an atheist, and then a nut job, and then a sociopath.
Let's not forget, this "nutjob" was one of our most important founding fathers whose pamphlets before and during the Revolutionary War were more influential to the future of America than anything dreamed up by Joseph Smith. Here are some excerpts from one of many websites devoted to this "nutjob."
"These are the times that try men's souls." This simple quotation from Founding Father Thomas Paine's The Crisis not only describes the beginnings of the American Revolution, but also the life of Paine himself. Throughout most of his life, his writings inspired passion, but also brought him great criticism. He communicated the ideas of the Revolution to common farmers as easily as to intellectuals, creating prose that stirred the hearts of the fledgling United States. He had a grand vision for society: he was staunchly anti-slavery, and he was one of the first to advocate a world peace organization and social security for the poor and elderly. But his radical views on religion would destroy his success, and by the end of his life, only a handful of people attended his funeral.
He traveled with the Continental Army and wasn't a success as a soldier, but he produced The Crisis (1776-83), which helped inspire the Army. This pamphlet was so popular that as a percentage of the population, it was read by or read to more people than today watch the Super Bowl.
By 1793, he was imprisoned in France for not endorsing the execution of Louis XVI. During his imprisonment, he wrote and distributed the first part of what was to become his most famous work at the time, the anti-church text, The Age of Reason (1794-96). He was freed in 1794 (narrowly escaping execution) thanks to the efforts of James Monroe, then U.S. Minister to France. Paine remained in France until 1802 when he returned to America on an invitation from Thomas Jefferson. Paine discovered that his contributions to the American Revolution had been all but eradicated due to his religious views. Derided by the public and abandoned by his friends, he died on June 8, 1809 at the age of 72 in New York City.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
Maybe you haven't studied American history or read a biography of Jefferson to see where Paine's life intersects with the founders of this country. He became a nut job, a persona non grata. A worshipper of the bloody French revolution.
Should I admire Mussolini, for getting the trains to run on time, and ignore the rest of his life?
DarkHelmet wrote:Paine discovered that his contributions to the American Revolution had been all but eradicated due to his religious views. Derided by the public and abandoned by his friends, he died on June 8, 1809 at the age of 72 in New York City.
Imagine if Paine had written a book titled The God Delusion in 1796? (Nine weeks on the NY Times bestseller list.)
rcrocket wrote:As were the leaders of the French Revolution; he was sympathetic to their cause. Look what happened there. Even he was arrested in its wake. He escaped with his life.
He was a nut job in his final days.
Basically, if you abandon the Mormon faith after knowing of its truth, you become an atheist, and then a nut job, and then a sociopath.
Yes, everyone knows that it takes a real nut job to believe that Joseph Smith didn't actually translate the "Book of Abraham" scrolls.
rcrocket wrote: A worshipper of the bloody French revolution.
Now why would he have "worshipped" the French Revolution?
The French Revolution (1789–1799) was a period of political and social upheaval and radical change in the history of France, during which the French governmental structure, previously an absolute monarchy with feudal privileges for the aristocracy and Catholic clergy, underwent radical change to forms based on Enlightenment principles of citizenship and inalienable rights......
The Roman Catholic Church, the largest landowner in the country, levied a tax on crops known as the dime or tithe. While the dîme lessened the severity of the monarchy's tax increases, it worsened the plight of the poorest who faced a daily struggle with malnutrition. There was too little internal trade and too many customs barriers....
Sounds just like Paine.
And one wonders if Joseph tried to provide the fictional answers to Paine:
rcrocket wrote:As were the leaders of the French Revolution; he was sympathetic to their cause. Look what happened there. Even he was arrested in its wake. He escaped with his life.
He was a nut job in his final days.
Basically, if you abandon the Mormon faith after knowing of its truth, you become an atheist, and then a nut job, and then a sociopath.
Paine's writings on religion are nearly indistinguishable from Jefferson's. Why aren't you calling Jefferson a nut job?
There is (or was) a painting of Thomas Jefferson in the Los Angeles Temple, last time I saw. Pretty odd that such a staunch critic of religion would find homage in a Mormon temple.
Don't Mormons believe that all of the Founding Fathers accepted the Gospel in the next life? Even if that's just Mormon lore, it still merits a hearty LOL.
JohnStuartMill wrote:Yes, everyone knows that it takes a real nut job to believe that Joseph Smith didn't actually translate the "Book of Abraham" scrolls.
Just because I believe in the literal resurrection and prophetic miracles doesn't disable me from declaring that Jeremy Bentham was a fool in terms of his social commentary.
It isn't a very astute criticism of an argument to cast an ad hominem attacking a poster on a subject he doesn't invoke. Is that what they taught at Sonoma State?
.