Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

[_The Dude]

But all of my posts have been removed, so the thread no longer makes sense.

Maracuja! Man, I loved that juice on my mission.

[_Doctor Scratch]

They probably won't bother, at least not on MAD, not right now. They are far too busy climbing the walls in ecstasy over R. Abanes's misreading of a Quinn quote.

Well, I am sure it is easier to go for the low-hanging fruit. Kevin presents too much of a challenge to these poor folks. Why else would they find it necessary to ban him automatically? I mean, he can be caustic, but the knee-jerk banning suggests that they are really quite frightened of Kevin. No one could be more intimidating than the former apologist who comes to the realization that there is something decidedly rank in the Mopologetic brownie.

I agree with this assessment 100%. Both DCP and Hamblin are too terrified to deal with him. Kevin was making mincemeat out of Hamblin on K. Shirts's blog at one point (If I recall correctly), and DCP had to bail out Hamblin! Similarly, DCP won't engage Kevin at all, probably since he has gotten his butt kicked one too many times.

So, the apologists like S. Lloyd, Greg Smith, and Loap have to try consoling themselves by ganging up on Richard Abanes.

[_Kevin Graham]

It just keeps getting increasingly worse for Wee Willy. And I wonder, by what act of rhetorical trickery will he try to wriggle his way out of this one?

He tries to be witty like Dan Peterson too often, and it just doesn't work. It is like putting a lawnmower engine inside a Ferrari shell. It might look the same at first glance, but when things start up, the difference is obvious. And he is always trying to prove he is just as good as Brent Metcalfe, professionally, grammatically, etc. It is almost sad to see it. There doesn't seem to be an original bone in this guy's body. If you go back to the MAD board and read his posts as "Provis," you can see the gradual transition in his prose. Metcalfe's command of the English language left an impresson on Will, and he has tried to match him ever since. Now he has his head so far up Gee's arse... who knows who he'll try to be like next month.

Where are these reliable, contemporary sources who attest to a lengthy scroll? Would someone do us a solid by gathering them in a single post so we can be the judges and we need not rely on the deft obfuscations of the apologists?

They don't exist. In fact I am in the process of compiling a list of all the available eye witness accounts of the papyri, for easy reference. Because I'm sick of them always trying to sell this old milk in new jugs every few years.

[_Kevin Graham]

Maracuja! Man, I loved that juice on my mission.

Maracuja is Portuguese for Passion Fruit. Where did you serve?

[_Kishkumen]

He tries to be witty like Dan Peterson too often, and it just doesn't work.

Yes, it is fairly obvious that he gets these 'guy crushes' on people like Daniel Peterson, and that he attempts to mimic their prose. Now, I'll give him his due. He is one of the more rhetorically colorful of the amateur Mopologists, but his wit is but the palest reflection of his Dark Master. It is very interesting that he did the same with Metcalfe. He must have been quite troubled by Metcalfe's arguments.

They don't exist. In fact I am in the process of compiling a list of all the available eye witness accounts of the papyri, for easy reference. Because I'm sick of them always trying to sell this old milk in new jugs every few years.

I look forward to viewing your list. I think it is high time someone put this argument to bed, frankly. I mean, it will matter very little how long the papyrus was at one time, if there is no solid support for a lengthy papyrus in Smith's possession. After all, it would not be beneath a seller of curiosities to slice some scroll off to sell to other buyers. The math must be supported by the contemporary witnesses. Otherwise, it's just more of the same old "could have been."

[_Kevin Graham]

I agree with this assessment 100%. Both DCP and Hamblin are too terrified to deal with him. Kevin was making mincemeat out of Hamblin on K. Shirts's blog at one point (If I recall correctly), and DCP had to bail out Hamblin! Similarly, DCP won't engage Kevin at all, probably since he has gotten his butt kicked one too many times.

LOL... oh the memories. I had to go look this up again, thanks for reminding me. It is kinda funny how Bill walked right into that one. Everyone always seems to think I'm bluffing when it comes to getting information:

Bill: Could you provide the source where I said that dhimmis could “do whatever they wanted”? I don’t believe I mentioned dhimmis in my presentation at all.

Sure-

“Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in Islamic lands in harmony. Christians and Jews were second class citizens but nevertheless they were allowed to practice their religion, they could do whatever they wanted.”(27:13-27:30 from the audio of your interview)

This is your statement word for word, so please stop with the accusations that I am misrepresenting what you say. To say you didn’t mention dhimmis is also misleading. Yes, I know you didn’t mention the word, but the dhimmis were Jews and Christians living in Islamic lands. Your assertion that they “could do whatever they wanted” is pure ahistorical bunk, but it the stuff that creates myth in Middle Eastern Studies.

Bill: Evidence, please. Does the term dhimmi appear in the Qur'an?

Kevin: Dhimmi is a word used in Islamic law to describe those mentioned in Quran 9:39, so the existence of the exact word in the Quran is immaterial. As you already know, the dhimmi is a subjugated non-Muslim under the yoke of Islamic rule. Quran 9:39 establishes the requisite prejudice factor when it orders Muslims to fight against all non-Muslims, even Christians and Jews, until they bowed down and pay a humiliating tax. The taxes provided a lifeline for the Islamic economy. Jews and Christians were always considered cows to be milked whereas those of polytheistic faiths were given the choices of conversion or death; at least initially.

The whole point, as the verse explains, was to make the dhimmi feel “subdued,” and humiliated.

MES scholars who unwittingly parrot Muslim apologists like to propagate the trendy notion that the mistreatment of the subjugated peoples wasn’t that bad and that the tax burden was only slight. But these opinions are not influenced by the testimonies of the dhimmis, which have for the most part been ignored by scholars who have already put all their intellectual stock into much needed myth. These opinions are products of a misguided modern academic paradigm which tends to blame the West for the woes throughout the world. The result is a concerted effort to extract any and all redeeming values in Islam, while focusing on all negatives in Christian history. Your interview illustrates how this has resonated in MES at BYU. Following the party line seems to be more important than providing a balanced treatment of history.

Bill: As a side note, would you rather have been a Jew in Muslim Spain or in Christian Spain?

Kevin: Ah, here we go with the usual apologetic line (and you wonder why I think you’re an apologist?) whereby the mythical glory of Muslim Spain is called to bear testimony to its so-called tolerance. Well Bill, it isn’t as if I didn’t see this coming, but let’s ask Moses Maimonides, the renowned Jewish philosopher and physician, who experienced the Almohad persecutions, and had to flee Cordova with his entire family in 1148. Contrary to the myth of a tolerant society in Muslim Spain, he testified that, “…the Arabs have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us...Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they.” Of course, I had to read Bat Yeór (rejected in “expert” circles like MESA because her findings turn their established myths on their heads) to find out this information because the leading authorities won’t share it.

The Andalusian Maliki jurist Ibn Abdun (d. 1134) offered these telling legal opinions regarding Jews and Christians in Seville around 1100 A.D.: “[Jews and Christians] must be detested and avoided. It is forbidden to greet them with the expression, “Peace be upon you’. In effect, ‘Satan has gained possession of them, and caused them to forget God’s warning. They are the confederates of Satan’s party; Satan’s confederates will surely be the losers!” A distinctive sign must be imposed upon them in order that they may be recognized and this will be for them a form of disgrace.”

Bill: I didn't note this "fact" because it's not true.

Kevin: Of course it is true. But apparently your using the scholarship of Thomas F. Madden - whose book is, required reading for your class – as target practice, and not as an informed perspective. According to Madden, “…much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.”

He immediately abandoned the discussion and hasn't talked to me since.

[_Kevin Graham]

I look forward to viewing your list. I think it is high time someone put this argument to bed, frankly. I mean, it will matter very little how long the papyrus was at one time, if there is no solid support for a lengthy papyrus in Smith's possession. After all, it would not be beneath a seller of curiosities to slice some scroll off to sell to other buyers. The math must be supported by the contemporary witnesses. Otherwise, it's just more of the same old "could have been."

Well even if there is evidence for extra papyri, the burden of proof still rests on their shoulders. They have to provide evidence that whatever is missing, was the source for the Book of Abraham. There is a mountain of evidence to suggest the Book of Breathings is the source. But f they want to dabble wth historcal accounts, then they have to explain why virtually all the eye witness accounts offer details that point directly to the extant papyri. Will's method of addressng this is by recreating history, essentially lying to his audience like he just did at MAD. You keep hearing them talk about the "historical testimony" of a "long roll" that's missing, but all we get are the same ridiculous sources that were dealt with decades ago.

[_The Dude]

Maracuja! Man, I loved that juice on my mission.

Maracuja is Portuguese for Passion Fruit. Where did you serve?

My mission was Rio de Janeiro but I was mostly stuck in dumpy places like Campo Grande and Volta Redonda. Still have good memories, though, especially of the cuisine.

[_Kevin Graham]

Dude, I never knew.

We have a house in Brasilia where we lived for four years, but now we live in João Pessoa, which is as far east as the continent goes, on the beach! Have you been back?

Você ainda fala português?

[_Kishkumen]

Well even if there is evidence for extra papyri, the burden of proof still rests on their shoulders. They have to provide evidence that whatever is missing, was the source for the Book of Abraham. There is a mountain of evidence to suggest the Book of Breathings is the source. But f they want to dabble wth historcal accounts, then they have to explain why virtually all the eye witness accounts offer details that point directly to the extant papyri. Will's method of addressng this is by recreating history, essentially lying to his audience like he just did at MAD. You keep hearing them talk about the "historical testimony" of a "long roll" that's missing, but all we get are the same ridiculous sources that were dealt with decades ago.

Indeed. Without the missing papyrus, which we don't even know Smith possessed, we have no way of knowing whether the Book of Abraham was contained thereon. Everything we know about Smith's "translations" would suggest that it was not, but there is an vanishingly small chance, truly a mathematical improbability in the extreme, that there was a Book of Abraham there. I almost wish we would find a missing JSP roughly 38 feet in length just to demonstrate once and for all that there is no chance Smith was actually translating a real ancient document.

Heck, we're really there already, but it seems this particular Flat Earth Society has a few tough holdouts yet. And unlike today's FES, these guys are sadly not joking.