Currently at MADB - Will loses his mojo

[_Enuma Elish]

There are many blind LDS people

You are one intriguing individual. I have honestly never witnessed such a profound case of bruised pride coupled with feigned spiritually in my entire life.

[_Kishkumen]

You are one intriguing individual. I have honestly never witnessed such a profound case of bruised pride coupled with feigned spiritually in my entire life.

That's all fine and good, Enuma, but what do you think of my suggestion above?

[_Enuma Elish]

Is this the result of shifting explanations, inaccurate reporting, or what? Was Joseph unable to settle on an identity for them? Is one of the options actually the one settled on in the end?

A great question, and I believe that we have a bit of both influencing the eye witnesses. Some of the accounts contain language which suggests an intentional effort to mock Joseph and the Saints, which would suggest the possibility that these sources may have exaggerated some of the details to make the Prophet's claims appear even more fantastic.

Still, as Joseph and the early Brethren worked through the documents they clearly presented a considerable amount of shifting interpretations.

And not only is the identity of the mummies changing, but also the texts. As I have mentioned before, we see a text penned by Abraham, one by Joseph, one by Moses, a bit by Aaron, etc. Why, this would have been a veritable trove of ancient Jewish scripture! One begins to wonder whether it was thought to be the equivalent of the Brass Plates. The emphases on Joseph and Egypt are suggestive.

This is an important observation. I think it's quite clear that whatever Joseph had in his possession, the Prophet intended to produce an extremely lengthy scriptural account via the papyri.

As one non-member, i.e. William S. West wrote:

"The Mormons have four mummies, and a quantity of records, written on papyrus... and a larger volume than the Bible will be required to contain them." A Few Interesting Facts, Respecting the Rise Progress and Pretensions of the Mormons (Warren, Ohio, 1837), 5.

[_Kishkumen]

"The Mormons have four mummies, and a quantity of records, written on papyrus... and a larger volume than the Bible will be required to contain them." A Few Interesting Facts, Respecting the Rise Progress and Pretensions of the Mormons (Warren, Ohio, 1837), 5.

This same quote might have implications for the translation method, it seems to me. Was it reasonable for Joseph and his associates to have supposed that the amount of preserved papyri could have contained a record larger than the Bible if they did not think that a single hieroglyph could render much English text?

[_Brent Metcalfe]

Hi David,

This has no doubt been pointed out before, however, in my mind, the statement Joseph dictated to Willard Richards for the March 1, 1842 edition of the Times and Seasons completely negates any argument against the notion that Joseph did not believe that Abraham literally wrote the scroll in his possession:

Venturing into the chirographic nightmare that is a Willard Richards holograph, here is my most recent transcription of Joseph Smith's letter to the Times and Seasons:

In the pr[e]sent no. will be found the commencement of the Reccords discovered in Egypt, some time since, {a}s penned by the hand, of Father Abraham, which I shall contin[u]e to translate & publish as fa{s}t a{s} possible till the whole is completed.

[Joseph Smith to the Times and Seasons, March 1842, Joseph Smith Collection, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, available on Selected Collections from the Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 2002), DVD 20.]

Kind regards,

</brent>

http://mormonscripturestudies.com
(© 2009 Brent Lee Metcalfe. All rights reserved.)
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The thesis of inspiration may not be invoked to guarantee historicity, for a divinely inspired story is not necessarily history.
—Raymond E. Brown

[_Kevin Graham]

Joseph Smith said the following in a letter published in the History of the Church:

"...the art of embalming human bodies and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women, and children, as mummies, after a lapse of near 3,500 years come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like sound of an earthquake." History of the Church, 6:73-78.

So according to Joseph Smith, the Jewish redactor theory would have to be tossed. He said the papyri were nearly 3,500 years old, and that they had not been touched since the time of Abraham.

The Jewish redactor theory, started by Kevin Barney, and is quickly becoming an apologetic favorite at FAIR, proposes that some mysterious Jew started mixing things around on the papyrus, simply because there is some evidence that Jews did that sometimes.

So when the current roll shows Facsimile #1 at the commencement of a bunch of text unrelated to Abraham, in their theory, Smith was translating the roll as it was originally written by Abraham without even knowing it because he didn't have a true knowledge of Egyptian anyway.

It doesn't seem to matter to modern-day apologists whether their theories remove idiocy from Smith with one hand, and yet give it right back with the other. The first day he saw the papyri, without Urim and Thummin in hand, he immediately divined that they were about Abraham. That's a pretty good trick. But he didn't know he was buying damaged goods, that had been tossed about by some ancient Jew?

[_Kevin Graham]

Dr. Bokovoy said,

As one non-member, i.e. William S. West wrote:

"The Mormons have four mummies, and a quantity of records, written on papyrus... and a larger volume than the Bible will be required to contain them." A Few Interesting Facts, Respecting the Rise Progress and Pretensions of the Mormons (Warren, Ohio, 1837), 5.

David, I sure hope you don't think this citation in anyway constitutes evidence for the missing papyrus theory. If you don't, well, I can see how some other apologist could try using it for such evidence. Here is the context:

The Mormons have four mummies, and a quantity of records, written on papyrus, in Egyptian hieroglyphics, which were brought from the catacombs near Thebes, in Egypt. They say that the mummies were Egyptian, but the records are those of Abraham and Joseph, and contain important information respecting the creation, the fall of man, the deluge, the patriarchs, the Book of Mormon, the lost tribe, the gathering, the end of the world, the judgment, &c. &c. This is as near as I can recollect; if there is an error I hope some of the Mormons will point it out, and I will recall it. These records were torn by being taken from the roll of embalming salve which contained them, and some parts entirely lost; but Smith is to translate the whole by divine inspiration, and that which is lost, like Nebuchadnezzar's dream, can be interpreted as well as that which is preserved; and a larger volume than the Bible will be required to contain them. For further account of these mummies and records, see Mormon Advocate, of December, 1835.

I just want it to be clear that he was referring to portions that were missing during the translation periods. He wasn't alluding to a ton of papyri material that could fill a volume larger than the Bible.

[_Kishkumen]

They say that the mummies were Egyptian, but the records are those of Abraham and Joseph, and contain important information respecting the creation, the fall of man, the deluge, the patriarchs, the Book of Mormon, the lost tribe, the gathering, the end of the world, the judgment, &c. &c. This is as near as I can recollect; if there is an error I hope some of the Mormons will point it out, and I will recall it. These records were torn by being taken from the roll of embalming salve which contained them, and some parts entirely lost; but Smith is to translate the whole by divine inspiration, and that which is lost, like Nebuchadnezzar's dream, can be interpreted as well as that which is preserved; and a larger volume than the Bible will be required to contain them. For further account of these mummies and records, see Mormon Advocate, of December, 1835.

What a fabulous bit of evidence. I would like to note here that according to this source, the kinds of things one would expect from the Brass Plates are said to be contained in this papyrus record, namely, information regarding the Book of Mormon, the Lost Tribe, the Gathering, etc.

Also, the bit about Daniel is most interesting. Consider the possibility that, when speaking of Nebuchadnezzar's Dream, he also had in mind the writing on the wall of N.'s palace, which Daniel interpreted. Then consider how the words match up with the translation: Mene=God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it; Tekel: thou art weighed in the balance, and found wanting; Peres: thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and the Persians.

Notice how a single word is interpreted in a complete period consisting of two independent clauses. Imagine Joseph Smith, as influenced as he was by Daniel, conceiving of the interpretation of sacred text in an unfamiliar language in the same way. In the case of the KEPA, one hieroglyph is packed with a bunch of ideas. And, as Brown argues, since Egyptian is much closer to the Pure Language than other languages, it is probably going to be packed with much more.

Consider too that he said the parts that were missing could be interpreted as well as the parts that were extant. Perhaps the characters from which the missing passages were composed were revealed to Joseph in a manner not unlike the appearance of characters matched with translation in the Book of Mormon translation process, or at least described in that same way by Joseph Smith. These would be the very same characters that appear in the KEPA, which prompted Shades to ask, "why restore characters for an unimportant part of the text that was not thought to be the Book of Abraham?"

Had the entire record as promised been translated, as Joseph had planned to do, then it would have represented the most complete set of scripture in the Judeo-Christian tradition, and it would have encompassed and validated Joseph Smith's unique Josephite mythos, which he first set out in the Book of Mormon. If this witness is accurate, it could be an incredibly important key to understanding Joseph Smith's conception of the significance of the mummies and a variety of other interesting and illuminating things.

[_Enuma Elish]

Hello Kevin,

I just want it to be clear that he was referring to portions that were missing during the translation periods. He wasn't alluding to a ton of papyri material that could fill a volume larger than the Bible.

Clearly we currently lack some of the segments of papyri that Joseph possessed, however, if they appeared, I would not expect to find anything written by Abraham himself or even the Book of Abraham for that matter contained in any portion of those missing texts.

[_Paul Osborne]

Hello Kevin,

I just want it to be clear that he was referring to portions that were missing during the translation periods. He wasn't alluding to a ton of papyri material that could fill a volume larger than the Bible.

Clearly we currently lack some of the segments of papyri that Joseph possessed, however, if they appeared, I would not expect to find anything written by Abraham himself or even the Book of Abraham for that matter contained in any portion of those missing texts.

It’s also reasonable to suggest that had not Joseph Smith given Explanations to the Facsimiles there would be zero chance that John Gee could tender interpretations/translations that would match the ones we presently have. This is proof that John Gee cannot translate the Book of Abraham from papyrus had by the prophet.

Ergo, the theory of a missing roll offers little consolation for apologists who expect conventional Egyptology to agree with Mormon revelation. John Gee would have a tough time translating the rest of the Book of Abraham and the Book of Joseph from the scrolls held by the prophet. In fact, he would have no choice but to forfeit and render them up into the hands of President Monson.

Paul O