Polygamy--What if...

[_Sethbag]

Since they all had a dog in the fight, I don't find them very credible.

This is moronic. Yes, I'm talking about mental capacity here, not just education. A lot of these apostates left because of the things they knew about Joseph Smith, which convinced them that he was an impostor. You are saying that they should not be believed because they were biased, and your evidence for that is that they left the church and didn't like Joseph Smith.

Did it ever occur to you that they left because of what they knew?

Have you ever read anything that William Law did or said? How can you doubt that his apostasy from the church was precipitated by what he learned and knew about Joseph's secret, and rampant, practice of polygamy? I think that much at the very least is crystal clear.

So when William Law mentions how Joseph told him about how this one girl had given him more pleasure than any girl he'd ever enjoyed, you won't believe it because William Law was an apostate, and I claim that William Law became an apostate because of precisely these sorts of things.

Anyhow, given how much we know Joseph used lying and deception, and secrecy, and coverups, and blaming and attacking others maliciously, how can you really claim it's reasonable to believe that, between William Law and Joseph, Joseph's statements are the more believable or trustworthy? What evidence have we got that William Law was a dishonest man, other than (as you suppose) his actual apostasy?

However, if you want to believe their statements you are free to do so. But it does seem Joseph Smith did not like the idea of polygamy. My quotations seem to prove regardless what the apostates say.

No they don't. There's no evidence that Joseph genuinely was reluctant about secretly propositioning dozens of women behind his wife's back. The only emotion I sense in the record is frustration that his secret faux marriages with dozens of women couldn't all remain secret.

[_Inconceivable]

What evidence have we got that William Law was a dishonest man, other than (as you suppose) his actual apostasy?

Hey Sethbag,

For Mormons, the fact that William Law rejected the light and knowledge given him as an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ makes him a dishonest man.

A Mormon will always discount the testimony of an apostate (unless they can be selective in what the apostate may have remained true to - ie witnesses of the Book of Mormon etc)

[_mocnarf]

If polygamy ever get's legalized. It will be because of Muslim pressure and not because of Mormon's pressing for it. I am quite sure that the LDS Church would keep their current stance. That the position is that the "polygamy" requirement has been fullfilled and that God no longer authorizes it.

If polygamy became wide spead (say 5% of the population) then the church might have a delema when prostelizing to non-member polygmist's. Would they take the position that the polygamist family must be broken up before they could be baptized?

It would put the LDS church in a somewhat awkword position. Don't you think?

[_JohnStuartMill]

I think that the general Mormon laity thinks that polygamy is as weird as any other group, but I wouldn't be too surprised if the hardcore Mormons who tend to make up the leadership of the Church reimplemented it. There's an awful lot of stuff said by Mormon prophets extolling polygamy as a divine institution; I find it hard to believe that those words will be completely ignored by modern leaders once the social stigma of polygamy is removed.

[_Seven]

"why me"
The only worthy thing that I found in the article is when she was on her deathbed. Usually on the deathbed people can speak the truth. Sarah said: If Mormonism is not true then there is no truth on earth.

How to explain that comment? Here we have a woman who confessed unbelief suddenly claim belief. Plus, she reportedly experienced all those experiences at the hands of Joseph Smith. I think that we are dealing with a very complicated woman in Sarah Pratt. But she has her story to tell and I have nothing to judge her by. It is her story.

Finally an apologist who agrees that the deathbed confession of Sylvia Lyons speaks truth about her sexual relationship with Joseph Smith. This is progress WhyMe. I've seen most apologists claim that deathbed confessions are not reliable because of mental impairment.

Faithful Mormon and wife of Joseph Smith, Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith. Josephine testified: "She (Sylvia) then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church." (Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915)

[_why me]

Faithful Mormon and wife of Joseph Smith, Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith. Josephine testified: "She (Sylvia) then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church." (Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915)

And yet, we have this:

Josephine Lyon, daughter of Sylvia Sessions Lyon, is reported to have told her daughter that she “was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith” shortly before she died. It is not known whether Sessions was referring to her daughter as being a literal descendant of Joseph Smith, or if she was referring to that fact that she had been sealed to the prophet. DNA testing is ongoing in order to make this determination, but it is rendered more difficult since the Y chromosome evidence of paternal lineage is not present in females.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_a ... _marriages

It seems that she was referring to be a spiritual daughter of Joseph Smith.

[_why me]

I think that the general Mormon laity thinks that polygamy is as weird as any other group, but I wouldn't be too surprised if the hardcore Mormons who tend to make up the leadership of the Church reimplemented it. There's an awful lot of stuff said by Mormon prophets extolling polygamy as a divine institution; I find it hard to believe that those words will be completely ignored by modern leaders once the social stigma of polygamy is removed.

As I said before, if the leadership of the chuch implements polygamy, the reason will be made clear to the members. Will members fall away. I say yes they will. But the reasons for it would be clear.

[_Inconceivable]

..if the leadership of the chuch implements polygamy, the reason will be made clear to the members.

Will members fall away. I say yes they will. But the reasons for it would be clear.

Clear?

The first time your God implemented it, it could only be understood through spiritual beer goggles.

Still takes the same shift from reality today.

[_why me]

Since they all had a dog in the fight, I don't find them very credible.

This is moronic. Yes, I'm talking about mental capacity here, not just education. A lot of these apostates left because of the things they knew about Joseph Smith, which convinced them that he was an impostor. You are saying that they should not be believed because they were biased, and your evidence for that is that they left the church and didn't like Joseph Smith.

Did it ever occur to you that they left because of what they knew?

Have you ever read anything that William Law did or said? How can you doubt that his apostasy from the church was precipitated by what he learned and knew about Joseph's secret, and rampant, practice of polygamy? I think that much at the very least is crystal clear.

So when William Law mentions how Joseph told him about how this one girl had given him more pleasure than any girl he'd ever enjoyed, you won't believe it because William Law was an apostate, and I claim that William Law became an apostate because of precisely these sorts of things.

Anyhow, given how much we know Joseph used lying and deception, and secrecy, and coverups, and blaming and attacking others maliciously, how can you really claim it's reasonable to believe that, between William Law and Joseph, Joseph's statements are the more believable or trustworthy? What evidence have we got that William Law was a dishonest man, other than (as you suppose) his actual apostasy?

However, if you want to believe their statements you are free to do so. But it does seem Joseph Smith did not like the idea of polygamy. My quotations seem to prove regardless what the apostates say.

No they don't. There's no evidence that Joseph genuinely was reluctant about secretly propositioning dozens of women behind his wife's back. The only emotion I sense in the record is frustration that his secret faux marriages with dozens of women couldn't all remain secret.

I think that the proof is in the timeline when sealings were occuring. Also, in what people said about his attitude toward it. William is an interesting character. But I would not go by what he said about Joseph Smith and the girl giving him pleasure. I think that that sounds out of character and rather stupid for Joseph Smith to say to someone.

And I have said it before that many were disappointed in Joseph Smith and his character. I have no idea what they expected to find in him. He was a human being, who happened to be a prophet. He did not live in a monastary in a state of constant prayer. He was out and about among the people. People with high expectations would have been disappointed in him.

In terms of Law's statement it seems unlikely the Joseph Smith said that to him:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_becau ... ul_motives

Joseph displayed an astonishingly principled commitment to the doctrine [of plural marriage]. He had to overcome opposition from his brother Hyrum and the reluctance of some of his disciples. Reflecting years later on the conflicts and dangers brought by plural marriage, some church leaders were struck with the courage Joseph displayed in persisting with it. And when one recalls a poignant encounter like that between [counselor in the First Presidency] William Law and Joseph in early 1844, it is difficult not to agree. Law, putting his arms around the prophet’s neck, tearfully pleaded that he throw the entire business of plurality over. Joseph, also crying, replied that he could not, that God had commanded it, and he had no choice but to obey.

The entire text is a worthwhile read.

[_truth dancer]

And I have said it before that many were disappointed in Joseph Smith and his character.

Yes, most people have some minimal expectation that spiritual leaders, (not to mention a prophet of God), would have a basic sense of decency, integrity, and honesty.

I have no idea what they expected to find in him.

Really? No idea? Let us think through this using TSM as an example.

Most people would expect LDS prophet TSM to be free from affairs with fourteen year old girls (and their mothers), you know, not having sex with the nanny. Most followers would expect him to not lie to church members, not swindle them or take advantage of them in some ponzi scheme. Most members think a prophet should be an example to whom they can look for truth. Most members think he should be worthy (you know, obeying the commandments and all that) of his calling; worthy to go to the temple (things like being honest with your fellow man), and have a minimal sense of decency.

Wouldn't you agree?

He was a human being, who happened to be a prophet.

There are plenty of men who don't have affairs with sixteen year old girls, who don't lie to their wives demanding they go along with it, who don't blame God for their untoward behavior, and who don't cheat and con their neighbors out of their money, wives, and daughters.

People with high expectations would have been disappointed in him.

People with LOW expectations were disappointed. I have never heard anyone suggest Joseph Smith should be perfect, free from mistakes. This is not the problem. The problem is, his behavior, in anyone else would be considered disgusting, perverted, illegal, immoral, cruel, dishonest, and downright "sinful".

I'm pretty sure if your neighbor engaged in the same sorts of behaviors in which Joseph Smith engaged, you would not give him a free pass and just claim he was human so, so what.

We have prisons filled with men who are "just human"... ever check out the sex offender registry? Should we excuse all these guys because they were just human? How about Warren Jeffs and his devotees?

If behavior is not OK in your average man, why is it OK in a prophet of God?

~td~