The MADness of the gay marriage debate

[_beastie]

There is yet another thread on MAD about gay marriage, this one a reasonable thread started by sethpayne about how it’s possible for people to oppose gay marriage without being bigots (a point with which I agree). As the thread progressed, of course statements were made such as gay people want to destroy marriage, etc, ad nauseum. I pointed out that given the fact that the younger generation supports gay marriage by a majority, when that generation takes over the reigns of power, the debate will be over. I stated that the anti-gay marriage folks have already lost, and they just don’t know it yet.

Charity responded thusly:

I wouldn't want to look forward to the day when that kind of change comes, beastie, if I were you.

Mosiah 29: 27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

I responded with this:

This type of response reveals that LDS like you really do think homosexuality is a worse sin than anything else. After all, this country is already riddled with fornication, adultery, pornography, child abuse, divorce, and the oppression of the poor and powerless, yet it would be gay marriage that would fulfill this scripture.

Another poster responded to the poll that I shared claiming:

Yes the poll could be read that way. It would also be useful to know how the pollees were picked and exactly how the questions were worded and in what context. Where the poll was run and who ran the poll would be useful.
Now as to the results. I come from the 60s. In my youth, lol, we thought a lot of things were supposed to change when we got in control. We were going to change the world. Today we are the group that is 55-65 years old and against gay marriage.
Convince me that the young people of today won't be the 55-65 year olds of tomorrow same as we are. And the same as many, many other generations of people since time began.
Time marches onward and we prove we are the same now as always.

I responded:

Human nature does not change, but social mores definitely change. It's part of what Mormonism decries.

Again, your argument would result in arguing that the generation now in their sixties would have supported gay marriage in their twenties. Frankly, that is a ridiculous argument. Homosexuality was still deep in the closet during that time period. Gay "marriage" wasn't even considered an option. It is ridiculous to argue that people who were living in that social climate would have supported gay marriage simply due to their youth.

But, of course, you're free to tell yourself whatever you want to to help you avoid the realization that your side has already lost.

Here’s what I came home to this afternoon:

Beastie, you are toeing the line and will be banned the next time you start with that attitude. Take the next 3 days off.

~Chronos

So I’m looking for feedback on two points. One, do you agree or disagree with my primary point that when the younger generation takes over, gay marriage will be legalized, if it hasn’t been before then?

And two, was what I said really that bad that I – out of all the people on that thread – deserved to be suspended?

Yeah, yeah, I know, participating at MAD as a critic ensures a certain amount of MADness.

by the way, here is the poll showing that the younger generation supports gay marriage:

Among those 18 to 34 years old, 58 percent said same-sex marriages should be legal. That number drops to 42 percent among respondents 35 to 49 years old, and to 41 percent for those 50 to 64 years of age. The poll indicates that only 24 percent of Americans 65 and older support recognizing same-sex marriages as valid.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... -marriage/

[_Jersey Girl]

beastie,

First, I want to say that I'm glad to see that charity is posting.

Yes, I generally agree with what you've stated regarding the younger generation unless the younger generation refines their individual perspectives in a way that would change their current views.

I say that on account of my own views having changed over the years regarding a whole host of issues (ex. accepting the women's/feminist movement at face value) by virtue of my life experiences and observations.

I honestly don't have an interest in discussing the suspension.

[Guest]

regarding younger generations: didn't churchill say something about being a liberal in youth and a conservative as one grows older. If the baby boomers are growing older then that would not be a good sign for the next twenty years for gay marriage but maybe after that -

[_Jersey Girl]

Extracting this one thing:

As the thread progressed, of course statements were made such as gay people want to destroy marriage, etc, ad nauseum.

The only persons who have the ability to destroy heterosexual marriage are the heterosexual couples who destroy their own.

It is foolish to think otherwise.

[_Ray A]

Lo and Behold I prophecy through my seerstone that your time is limited. A repeat of The Dude episode. No, there's nothing offensive there, except perhaps your challenging intellect.

[_JohnStuartMill]

regarding younger generations: didn't churchill say something about being a liberal in youth and a conservative as one grows older. If the baby boomers are growing older then that would not be a good sign for the next twenty years for gay marriage but maybe after that -

I think, to the extent Churchill's aphorism is true, it's true along the economic dimension. It makes sense that young people are more likely to be economically liberal, because young people also typically make less money than older people do. It also makes sense that they grow more conservative as they get older. I haven't seen any data to suggest that liberal social views exhibit this same effect, though.

[_ktallamigo]

Beastie:

First of all, I agree with your predictions about the future of gay marriage in America. Right now we see state after state making it legal, and slowly I believe it will extend to all states, eventually even the most conservative regions. It is, in a certain sense, a civil rights issue.

I still don't know how I feel personally about gay marriage -- I'm not gay, so I don't really understand -- but I don't think it is right to discriminate against a specific minority.

I predict that as scientists do more research on the brain they will find that there are neurological and/or biological reasons why people are gay. So, in the future when we have more knowledge, I believe homosexulality will cease to be a "moral" issue.

As for your "warnings" at MAD, I would be upset too, but you just have to consider the source. You were only making logical points for your argument, but because your argument goes against the opinions of the prophets and the majority of posters there, they "can't handle the truth."

I've posted over there only a handful of times under a different moniker, and I've received two moderator warnings. It doesn't take much truth to make the mods go bonkers.

Keep on pointing out the truth!!

[_Doctor Scratch]

So I’m looking for feedback on two points. One, do you agree or disagree with my primary point that when the younger generation takes over, gay marriage will be legalized, if it hasn’t been before then?

Yes, I agree with your point, Beastie.

And two, was what I said really that bad that I – out of all the people on that thread – deserved to be suspended?

Did you deserve the suspension from an objective standpoint? No. Of course not. Did you deserve the suspension from the POV of the aptly named MADboard? Yes. You have to bear in mind that once gay marriage is fully legalized on a national level, the people who opposed it will essentially be like the dinosaurs who opposed miscegenation. So: the MADites are (in my opinion) understandably rattled by the notion that they are/eventually will be pretty much universally regarded as bigots one day.

[_JohnStuartMill]

beastie: you're right, they're mostly out of their minds, and they're treating you unfairly. Easy-peasy.

Here's a good article about the future political prospects of gay marriage, by the way:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/04/ ... riage.html

[_Gadianton Plumber]

Beastie: I think, for once, the gays are on the right side of history this time. I can sort of feel the little drops of time dripping away, and I agree that my children's generation will be the greatest agents of change. With so much going in the wrong direction these days, it is heartening to see something getting better. It makes me hopeful overall.

For the life of me, I don't know why you got suspended. I think it has more to do with how well known you are in these little circles, than the very excellent points you've made. I think if someone poses a logical threat to the "line" and are well known, they are history. How else could someone explain the bannings of Cinepro or Runtu (two very patient and respectful in house critics) and I remain untouched. I am astonished I have not been given the ax yet.