Michael Ash blames "naïve" church members for apostasy

[_Paul Osborne]

I would have to agree that church curriculum is whitewashed and sanitized for member consumption. It appears that the only thing acceptable is faith promoting material. I’ve always been one that appreciates the whole truth but that is something that just isn’t available in a church setting. It’s a matter of protecting faith at all costs. I don’t agree with it but there isn’t anything I can do about it. Complaining against church leaders can get you in trouble. I try to do as little of that as possible.

Paul O

[_The Dude]

When we examine the narratives of those who left the church, we discover common threads in many of their religious world views. Typically, they have fundamentalist religious ideals and are often naïve about certain facets of the gospel or early LDS historical events. That doesn't mean that such members will apostatize, but such worldviews potentially set them up for disaster.

I would think someone who fashions himself as an expert on shaken testimonies would not be so mystified by self-constructed "narratives". The purpose of these narratives is to justify a life-changing decision to family and friends who are generally unsupportive. In this situation, the narratives are defensive and avoid the personal, instead focusing on non-personal gospel and historical issues. The narratives often do not acknowledge (or at least do not focus on) the true reasons for leaving, which are reasons of the heart.

[_solomarineris]

Maybe the time has come to publish honest history -- beginning with the fact that Nephites were a fiction.
UD

This demand, coming from a learned Man like you is rather surprising.
Suppose that the medical practice I am running led by a physician with
false credentials, on top of that she believes homeopathy, and hates vaccinations.

Could I expect more patients in the future?

[_Joey]

First, no one should have a testimony of LDS history.

But this is exactly what the LDS church and its members testify to when the mantra of "I know the church is true" is recited. And ironically it is a testimony of "history" that never existed in testifying that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

Some should think before they post!!!

[_Uncle Dale]

Maybe the time has come to publish honest history -- beginning with the fact that
Nephites were a fiction.
UD

This demand, coming from a learned Man like you is rather surprising.
Suppose that the medical practice I am running led by a physician with
false credentials, on top of that she believes homeopathy, and hates vaccinations.
Could I expect more patients in the future?

Let's add one more factor to your analogy.

Let's say that even though the doctor has some "false credentials" displayed on his
office wall, that he also has on file numerous valid statements from people he has
cured. And, in fact, he has obtained good results from far, far more patients than
those who have not been cured/improved.

At some point, might not the good doctor simply take down his false diplomas and licenses?
In other words, the results of his medical practice would demonstrate his healing abilities
far better than his reliance upon the false credentials. They may have been useful in
the early days of his starting up his operations, but they are less useful later on.

Of course I'm leaving out the part where the local authorities arrest and jail
the good doctor, for his initial falsehoods, and practicing without a proper license.

Uncle Dale

[_mms]

And now here is my suggestion to you: submit a proposal about church curriculum materials and see where it leads you. What information would please you? What facts would you include that would be to your liking? All you need to do is to write a letter.

But I will also say this: you may want this included or that included. Uncle Dale may want his own this and that, likewise for Shades and Kevin Graham. Maybe the church needs to have a powwow with the critics and plan the material around them.

why me, I have to be honest with you. I think you know better than what you write a significant part of the time. This ridiculous "just write a letter" argument is, well, ridiculous. Many people, including LOaP have written asking the Church to add--or asking why it has not added--information to the official Joseph Smith website about his 32 other wives or even one of them. Response? Well, of course, nothing! You know people can write all the letters they want to write and the result will be the same--"not all truth is useful."

Moreover, your argument that "some will want this and some will want that" is disengenuous. In most instances, it is completely obvious what should be added--the stuff was that overtly deleted when putting together the correlated materials. For example, in the Joseph Smith manual, they could put that single paragraph back in the Wentworth Letter; on the website, they could add information about when plural marriage started and who knew about it and why "lying for the lord" was, apparently, the right thing to do. Seriously, I do not think you actually believe what you write some of the time.

[Guest]

Aren't the leaders of the Church at all responsible for creating this "fundamentalist mindset" to which Mike refers? I distinctly recall statements to the effect that Mormonism is either everything Joseph Smith claimed it to be or it is a fraud. Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie and others were also wonderful examples of the black and white thinking Mike associates with this "fundamentalism." Is it at all unpredictable that many LDS people should share this perspective?

[_Seven]

Now I do think that the LDS church should have a history class during sunday school and the manual can be taken from Bushman's book and a host of others. I think that it is important to read the history of the LDS church but then again, we have a problem because the critics are not all in line with one another. And because they suffer from criticitis, they will not be happy regardless and neither would you... right??

You don't need a history class during Sunday School to correct the myths and long list of misleading statements used in the manuals about Joseph Smith's life and church history. It would only take a few sentences on many topics to fix the problems created by deceiving church members on these issues. But I agree that it would be nice to have a class discussing the unvarnished church history, without apologetic or anti Mormon spin. Teach members the facts and let them come to their own conclusions. (In other words, Bushman's book doesn't qualify)

For starters, just mentioning that Joseph Smith taught and practiced polygamy in Nauvoo as a principle required for exaltation, along with the names of Joseph Smith's mortal wives besides Emma, would not be that difficult.

It wouldn't take more than a few extra pages in a book to point out some basic facts about polygamy that most members have been kept in the dark from.

[_Seven]

Aren't the leaders of the Church at all responsible for creating this "fundamentalist mindset" to which Mike refers. I distinctly recall statements to the effect that Mormonism is either everything Joseph Smith claimed it to be or it is a fraud. Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie and others were also wonderful examples of the black and white thinking Mike associates with this "fundamentalism." Is it at all unpredictable that many LDS people should share this perspective?

Yep. If I recall correctly, Beastie used to have that quote in her signature.

I posted this in the Celestial forum when discussing why Chapel Mormons have a much different view of LDS Prophets than internet Mormons. It's no wonder they have shaken faith syndrome when they learn of all the discarded doctrines and teachings and grossly immoral behavior from previous LDS Prophets. This is what they are teaching the Young Women right now about the role of Mormon Prophets:

(responses in blue are mine)

Follow the Brethren


“Lesson 13: Follow the Brethren,” The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part B, 99
The purpose of this lesson is to motivate us to follow the directions we receive from the Lord’s ordained leaders.
The Lord Speaks to Us through His Prophets....
Who is the Lord’s prophet and mouthpiece on the earth today?

God reveals His word to us through prophets (see Amos 3:7). As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to know that there is a prophet on the earth, who serves as President of the Church, and that through this prophet the Lord makes known His mind and will. When the prophet speaks to us in the name of the Lord, he speaks what the Lord would say if He were here.
We also believe “all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9).
It is a blessing to be members of the true Church and to know that our prophet speaks the will of the Lord for today. Knowing that the Lord speaks through His prophet reassures us that the Savior lives and that He loves us and is interested in us.
The prophet who leads the Church will never lead us astray. He tells us things that pertain to our lives now. The prophet gives us instruction from the Lord at general conference, which is held twice each year. He also gives the Lord’s counsel to us at other conferences held throughout the world. Many of the prophet’s addresses are printed in the Church magazines. [and apologists wonder why Chapel Mormons view sermons as modern day scripture????]

In addition to the President of the Church, other men are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators. These are the prophet’s counselors and the Quorum of the Twelve. These Brethren also receive revelation, bring us the will of the Lord, bear witness of the divinity of Christ, teach the plan of salvation, and perform ordinances.

President Harold B. Lee said: “If you want to know what the Lord has for this people at the present time, I would admonish you to get and read the discourses [including the Journal of Discourses] that have been delivered at this [general] conference; for what these brethren have spoken by the power of the Holy Ghost is the mind of the Lord, the will of the Lord, the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation”
(in Conference Report, Apr. 1973, 176; or Ensign, July 1973, 121).

Another experience of meeting a prophet is told by Sister Piriko Valkama Petersen.
• • Have a class member read the following story:
“In the summer of 1952 the young people from our branch were enjoying Girl Scout camp near Helsinki, Finland, and anticipating a visit from President David O. McKay. A beautiful grove surrounded by tall birch trees was chosen as the setting for welcoming the president, and since the summer had been lovely, we believed that this special day would be beautiful too.
“As the time approached, and we talked of his visit, one of the girls suddenly asked, ‘What will happen to our testimonies if he does not act and look like a prophet?’ Little by little, doubts began to creep into our minds. The darkness of these doubts seemed to be reflected even in nature, as dark, heavy clouds gathered above our heads on the day of his coming and the rain came down in torrents. I remember sitting under a large tree with a friend, watching the rain beat down on the lake, and again and again my thoughts returned to the gnawing fear that the president might not meet our expectations. I knew he would not appear in white robes like the prophets of old we saw in pictures, but that he would be dressed like an ordinary man. So strongly did I fear losing my testimony that if I could, I would have run away. But that was not to be, I had been chosen to give the welcoming speech.
“As we walked toward the grove, the rain let up, but the sky was so gray and the clouds so heavy it was almost dark. Our Scout uniforms were wet, and we were drained of enthusiasm. In silence we … waited. My place was in the middle of the line. I was supposed to take three steps forward, greet President McKay and his company, wish Sister McKay a happy birthday and give a flower to her.
“Into this dark, damp setting drove a black car. And then, as President McKay stepped from the car, the sun broke through and suddenly the grove was a sea of light. The leaves and grass sparkled as the rays of sun hit the raindrops. We were stunned and momentarily blinded by this intense light.
“I looked at the president but could not see him clearly. All I could see was his majestic silhouette against the sun, with the light against his beautiful white hair forming, it seemed, a shining halo around his head. We all gasped and stood in awed silence.
“The time had come for me to take my three steps forward and welcome the president, but I could not move. I knew that if I took those three steps, he would immediately see the doubts and fears in my heart that had been tormenting me. Everyone waited, and I stood there helpless.
“Finally we heard the mission president … prompting, ‘Sister Valkama, didn’t you have something to say to us?’ I forced myself to take three very small steps. The tears streamed down my face. …
“I tried to speak. Confused and embarrassed, I stood there and wept quietly. Then I heard President McKay’s voice.
“ ‘Come here, my child.’
“I went to him and he took both my hands in his and held them while I gave my greeting. I was aware of his golden, tanned skin and the warm light in his eyes. I felt as though it was as important for him to help me as it was for me to give my message. A feeling of complete peace flowed from his hands into me. My fear of him judging me, which I had felt only a moment earlier, left me and an overwhelming feeling of love had taken its place. I knew he was the prophet of God who had come not to judge us but to love us” (“When the Sun Broke Through,” Ensign, Aug. 1976, 37).
[that story sounds like Mormons do worship Prophets]


We should pray for the prophet in our private and family prayers. We should teach our children to be thankful for and to pray for the prophet, as illustrated in this story: “One family knelt in prayer soon after hearing the news of the death of President Joseph Fielding Smith. The father expressed thankfulness for having lived during the ministry of that great prophet. He then thanked the Lord for all the prophets who have lived, and especially for President Harold B. Lee [the new President of the Church]. He prayed that his children might become acquainted with the new prophet and study his teachings. ‘Bless these fine children, Father,’ he prayed, ‘that they might follow those who follow the prophet and never do anything that President Lee would not do’ ” (Marian Sorensen, “Teaching Children through Prayer,” Ensign, May 1973, 34).
[shouldn't it be "what would Jesus do?"]

After local leaders are chosen, they are presented for our sustaining vote. When we raise our hands to sustain them, we are promising to follow them and help them in their callings. President James E. Faust taught that obedience to priesthood leaders’ counsel can bring us great comfort. He said: “I do not speak of blind obedience, but rather the obedience of faith, which supports and sustains decisions with confidence that they are inspired. [that sounds like blind obdience to me. What happens if you disagree with the Prophet?] I advocate being more in tune with the Spirit so we may feel a confirming witness of the truthfulness of the direction we receive from our priesthood leaders. [in other words, if you get an answer to your prayer that conflicts with the Prophet, you are not in tune with the spirit] There is great safety and peace in supporting our priesthood leaders in their decisions” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1997, 59; or Ensign, May 1997, 42–43).
• • What might a local priesthood leader ask us to do?
[ give our 14 year old daughter in marriage to the Prophet, give our wife to the Prophet....]
How can we show that we believe he is called of God?
Parents have a responsibility to teach their children to sustain and support their local priesthood leaders. They should never criticize priesthood leaders or say unkind things about them. Criticizing our leaders endangers our own salvation. We should be careful to speak highly of priesthood leaders in front of our children. We should teach them to be loyal to the offices of the Lord’s kingdom. Our children will then learn by example to be loyal to both the offices and those called to serve as our priesthood leaders in these offices.

“The men who hold the Priesthood are but mortal men; they are fallible men. …
“Nevertheless, God has chosen these men. He has singled them out. They have not done it themselves; but He has selected them, and He has placed upon them the authority of the Holy Priesthood, and they have become His representatives in the earth. …
“And those who lift their voices … against the authority of the Holy Priesthood … will go down to hell, unless they repent” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, sel. Jerreld L. Newquist, 2nd ed., 2 vols. [1974], 1:276).

Conclusion
Heavenly Father loves us and has given us prophets to guide us. The prophet who is President of the Church will never lead us astray. We must gain a testimony of the prophet and teach our children to listen to his words.
Local priesthood leaders have also been called of God to help us. We should sustain and support them. We should be willing to listen to their counsel and advice as it is given to guide us in our personal lives.
When we show love and respect for our prophet and local leaders, those around us will also feel more inclined to do so. Conclusion: Prophets are fallible but you are to follow them as if they are infallible.

[_DonBradley]

Actually, the fundamentalist mindset may be part of the reason Mormonism has thrived. It is liberal churches that are shrinking; the conservative ones continue to grow.

Despite the losses of members here and there because of the fundamentalist mindset, the church would likely lose many more, and attract fewer, if it moved away from fundamentalism altogether.

I suspect the church leaders have taken a lesson or two from the ill-fated experiment of the rapidly liberalizing Community of Christ, and are determined to not take that route.

Who can blame them?

Don