Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Kevin Graham »

You're argument with the slightly different nuance is also a classic creationist argument.

Is this your way of admitting you were wrong? Probably not.

The arguments are not merely "slightly" different. They are completely different. One tres to argue that wings didn't evolve, and the other argues that wings did evolve, but that mutatons cannot simply be random.

It's also extremely ignorant with respect to biology. At least Paley had the advantage of not knowing much about biology due being alive in the 1700's.


But Paley hasn't been refuted at all, and I have presented enough evidence to prove this. Evidence you have never addressed. Remember my citation from Stephen Barr?

What Dawkins does not seem to appreciate is that his blind watchmker is something even more remarkable than Paley's watches. Paley finds a "watch and asks how such a thing could have come to be there by chance. Dawkins finds an immense automated factory that blindly constructs watches, and feels that he has completely answered Paley's point. But that is absurd. How can a factory that makes watches be less in need of explantion than the watches themselves?

For one kind of life to evolve into another may be attributed to the blind forces of nature, but the anthropic principle implies that these forces were set in motion deliberately, purposefully, with a view to producing precisely the living beings that biologists superficially presume to have gotten here by accident. It's one thing to say that the finche's beak and the moth's hue and the human eye all evolved by chance. But the universe that lawfully produces finches, moths and humans is quite clearly the product of intention and creative design. So Dawkins's 'reutation' of Paley fails gloriously and completely. Paley was right all along. (Modern Physics and Ancient Faith, pp. 78-79)


No one has provided a satisfying response to Barr.

You should've taken the classic Mikwut gambit where he tries to suggest your reasons for belief are closer to what he likes to defend, which is more akin to Plantinga's sensus divinitus and warranted belief arguments


Unlike you, I am not here to put on a show for Milkut or anyone else. I couldn't give a flying flip whether my views accord with Milkut's or anyone else's. You're just trying to wriggle your way out of the mess you just created for yourself. Why won't you address your association fallacy? Isn't that what it is? If not, why not? Keep dodging EA, that's what you do best.
_DonBradley
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Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _DonBradley »

marg wrote:Kevin if it was true as you say, that Christianity gave rise to science then science should have begun when Christianity began, but that is not the case.


Hi Marg, this is a non sequitir. If I "give rise" to a child, this doesn't mean that child must have been born when I was.

Kevin is employing an argument laid out in detail by sociologist of religion Rodney Stark in his recent books. If you want to assess the case made for this view, that would be the place to start. I haven't seen any lengthy response to Stark on this point, but I'm sure there will be.

It really wasn't until the 18th century in what is known as the enlightenment age that science began and the scientific method was based upon the non-reliance of explanations for phenomena attributed to the supernatural.


This isn't true either. Science got going in force prior to the Enlightenment and was one of the contributors to the Enlightenment. The Renaissance saw a flowering of science prior to the rise of the Deism you mention. And it is now widely recognized that the Renaissance built to a great extent, in science, technology, and commerce, on developments of the high Middle Ages.

And even Deism adopted the order-producing God of Aquinas, et al., though it had him not act in the world after the Creation.

Don
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I not sure you are serious here. I think this could be Devil's advocate Kevin speaking again. In any case, I find this argument so ridiculous, at the moment I'm considering it beneath reply.


In other words, you refuse to own up to your mistake. As a recap, you accused me of quoting creationist sources verbatim. You have to make this argument by misunderstanding what it is the two arguments are and then you refuse to provide any evidence that I have in fact used these sources. You've blamed it on a bad search engine. Now you blame it on... what? When will you find your balls and own up to your mistake?

I mentioned Pearcey and Thaxton, because they wrote one of the two most significant works arguing your thesis (and could likely have influenced your sources.) I also mentioned it because I coincidentally already mentioned both in this thread. I'm not trying to argue this is wrong because it comes from dubious sources.


Provide citations. Substantiate your point that I quote them verbatm. The fact is I've never even heard of these people. And when do yo plane to address the associaton fallacy? Oh, never. I forgot.

Dinesh D'Souza incorporates design arguments into is apologetic talk circuit, but if I recall he avoids organismic design arguments most notably associated with creationism. I know Thomas E. Woods for his shoddy historical arguments that are popular in the neo-confederate movement. He's part of the "paleolibertarian" crowd you can find at Lew Rockwell that annoys the heck of of libertarians like me. I wasn't aware he was into this argument, but it's not exactly shocking that he is. Smart money is on him being a creationist too, but I don't know. He's not a leader in the creationist movement, though. I'm not familiar with Robert Spencer.


Of course it is everyone else's fauylt you don't know how to comprehend arguments. Everyone else must be a creationist "probably" right? EA can do no wrong, especially when t becomes most obvious that he has. I'm just curious about one thing. If you're really an atheist, when did you stop believing in yourself?

You refuse to justify your use of the word creationist so until you do all your wailing and moaning about people who you call creatonists, is just a charade. I present two objective sources for the meaning of the term, none of which bode well with your self-serving caricature.

How do you think I recognized the argument so quickly Kevin? Do you think it might've been from reading books?


You haven't read Flew's book, OBVIOUSLY, You rely on popular snppets, probably from the talkorigins blogs and the infidels.org e-lists.

I didn't engage your argument. I laughed at it. To quote myself, "Ahahaha!" And when you suggested earlier that this was my MO, I did you a favor where I posted a thread where I spent thousands of words dismantling your arguments pretty thoroughly. So, no.

Is that what you thought you did? Now that's funny.

This is why it s pointless with you guys. Whenever I try to get into the deeper issues, all you do is respond with "You're just ignorant of biology," and pretend that counts as an answer. But you never answer my question or concern about rondom mutations. It seems you don't know how to converse with anyone who isn't ether a die-hard evolutionist or an anti-evolutionist. I'm neither, and you don't know how to respond to my concerns probably because the secular web has yet to tell you how to respond. They're too busy bashing creatonists, which is why you need me to be one so desperately. Those are the only kinds of argument's your prepared to confront.
_EAllusion
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Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _EAllusion »

The arguments are not merely "slightly" different. They are completely different. One tres to argue that wings didn't evolve, and the other argues that wings did evolve, but that mutatons cannot simply be random.


What?! No. Both allow for the admission that wings can likely evolve if and only if there is some intelligence guiding the direction of change. The half-a-wingers aren't necessarily arguing that God couldn't direct the form of the evolution of a wing from functionally dubious form to functionally dubious form. God can do anything he pleases. They are saying that "random" evolution couldn't sustain this, so some intelligence has to be behind it if it occurred at all. The problems with this classic argument are two-fold. 1) Unguided evolutionary processes can account for this kind of change and 2) This is an argument from ignorance. I'll let Elliot Sober again explain why:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

The objection to Behe’s argument that I want to focus on here concerns the type of reasoning he employs against evolutionary theory and in favor of the hypothesis of intelligent design. Behe repeatedly vacillates between using a deductive and a probabilistic modus tollens against evolutionary theory. The vacillation sometimes occurs on the same page. Consider the following passage:
... I have shown why many biochemical systems cannot be built up by natural selection workingon mutations: no direct, gradual route exists to these irreducibly complex systems ... There is nomagic point of irreducible complexity at which Darwinism is logically impossible. But the hurdlesfor gradualism become higher and higher as structures are more complex, more interdependent
(p. 203).


Behe’s first sentence says that irreducible complexity cannot arise by Darwinian processes; however, the next two assert, more modestly, that irreducibly complex features are improbable on the Darwinian model and that they become more improbable the more complex they are. I hope it is clear from what I’ve said earlier why this shift is important. If evolutionary theory really did have the deductive consequence that organisms cannot have features that are irreducibly complex, then that theory would have to be false, if such features exist. But what if the theory merely entailed that irreducibly complex
features are very improbable? Would the existence of such features show that the theory is
improbable? Would it follow that the theory is disconfirmed by those observations? Would it followthat these features provide evidence in favor of intelligent design? The answers to all these questions arethe same – no. There is no probabilistic analog of modus tollens.

In addition to rejecting evolutionary explanations, Behe advances the positive thesis that the
biochemical systems he describes in loving detail “were designed by an intelligent agent” (p. 204).

However, for these details to favor intelligent design over mindless evolution, we must know how probable those details are under each hypothesis. This is the point of the Law of Likelihood. Behe asserts that these details are very improbable according to evolutionary theory, but how probable are they according to the hypothesis of intelligent design? It is here that we encounter a great silence. Behe and other ID theorists spend a great deal of time criticizing evolutionary theory, but they don’t take even the first steps towards formulating an alternative theory of their own that confers probabilities on what we observe. If an intelligent designer built the vertebrate eye ,or the bacterial flagellum, or the biochemical cascade that causes blood to clot, what is the probability that these devices would have thefeatures we observe? The answer is simple – we do not know. We lack knowledge of what this
putative designer’s intentions would be if he set his mind to constructing structures that perform these functions.

The sad fact about ID theory is that there is no such theory. Behe argues that evolutionary theory entails that adaptive complexity is very improbable, Johnson rails against the dogmatism of scientists who rule out a priori the possibility of supernatural explanation, and Dembski tries to construct an epistemology in which it is possible to gain evidence for the hypothesis of design without ever having to know what, if anything, that hypothesis predicts. A lot goes wrong in each of these efforts but notice what is not even on the list.

Intelligent design theorists may feel that they have already stated their theory. If the existence of the vertebrate eye is what one wishes to explain, their hypothesis is that an intelligent designer constructed the vertebrate eye. If it is the characteristics of the vertebrate eye (the fact that it has features F1, F2,...FN rather than its mere existence, that one wants to explain, their hypothesis is that an intelligent designer constructed the vertebrate eye with the intention that it have features F1, F2,...FN and that this designer had the ability to bring his plan to fruition.

Notice that both of these formulations of the hypothesis of intelligent design simply build into that hypothesis the observations whose explanation we seek. The problem with this strategy is that the same game can be played by the other side. If theevolutionary hypothesis is formulated by saying “evolution by natural selection produced the vertebrate
eye” or by saying that “evolution by natural selection endowed the eye with feature F1, F2,...FN then it too entails the observations.

To avoid trivializing the problem in this way, we should formulate the observations so that they
are not built into the hypotheses we want to test. This can be achieved by organizing the problem as follows:
(O) The vertebrate eye has features F1, F2,...FN
(ID)
The vertebrate eye was created by an intelligent designer.
(ENS) The vertebrate eye was the result of evolution by natural selection.
Behe claims that (O) has a low probability according to the (ENS) hypothesis.

My complaintis that we do not know what the probability of (O) is according to (ID). If an intelligent designer made the eye, perhaps he would have been loathe to give it the features we observe. Or perhaps he would have aimed at producing those very characteristics.

The single sentence stated in (ID) [EA: The designer did it] does not a theory make. This problem is not solved by simply inventing assumptions about the putative designer’s
goals and abilities; what is needed is information about the putative designer(s) that is independently attested. Without that information, the theory makes no predictions about the eye or about the other examples of “irreducible complexity” that Behe discusses. And without those predictions, the intelligent design movement can provide no evidence against the evolutionary hypothesis.

After concluding that evolutionary theory cannot explain adaptations that are irreducibly
complex, Behe briefly broaches the subject of whether some “as-yet-undiscovered natural process” might be the explanation. Here is his analysis:
No one would be foolish enough to categorically deny the possibility ... [however] if there is
such a process, no one has a clue how it would work. Further, it would go against all human
experience, like postulating that a natural process might explain computers ... In the face of the massive evidence we do have for biochemical design, ignoring that evidence in the name of aphantom process would be to play the role of the detectives who ignore an elephant (pp. 203-204).


Notice that Behe claims that there is “massive evidence for biochemical design,” but what is that evidence? It seems to consist of two facts, or alleged facts – that evolutionary theory says that irreducibly complex adaptations have low probabilities and that no one has yet formulated any other theory restricted to mindless natural processes that could be the explanation. However, if the comparative principle about evidence stated earlier is correct, this “evidence” is no evidence at all.

After evolutionary theory and “as-yet-undiscovered natural process[es]” are swept from the
field, Behe immediately concludes that the biological mechanisms whose details he has described... were designed by an intelligent agent.
We can be as confident of our conclusion for these cases as we are of the conclusions that a mousetrap was designed, or that Mt. Rushmore or an Elvis poster were designed ...Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles as our ability to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on those the components (p. 204).


Behe is right that the nonbiological examples he cites favor hypotheses of intelligent design over hypotheses that postulate strictly mindless natural processes, but he is wrong about the reason and wrong to think that biochemical adaptations can be assimilated to the same pattern. In the case of mousetraps, Mount Rushmore, and Elvis posters, we are confident about intelligent design because we have strong evidence for human intelligent design. We know that all of these objects are just the sorts of things that human beings are apt to make. The probability of their having the features we observe, on the hypothesis that they were made by intelligent human designers, is fairly large, whereas the probability
of their having those features, if they originated by chance, is low. The likelihood inference is
unproblematic. But the probability that the bacterial flagellum would have the features we observe, orthat the mechanism for blood clotting would have its observed features, if human beings somehow made those devices, is very very low.

ID theorists therefore are led to consider possible nonhuman designers – indeed, possible designers who are supernatural. Some of these possibilia would, if they
existed, have goals and abilities that would make it highly probable that these devices have the featureswe observe; others would not. Averaging over all these possibilities, what is the probability that the device will have the features we observe if it was made by some possible intelligent designer or other?

We do not know, even approximately.

Behe would like to be able to identify an observable feature of natural objects that could not
exist if those objects were produced by strictly mindless processes and that therefore must be due to intelligent design (natural or supernatural). There is no such property. It is not impossible for irreducibly complex functional features to arise by the evolutionary process of natural selection, which is not a random process.

Indeed, it isn’t even impossible for them to arise by a purely random chance process. This is the simple point made vivid by thinking about monkeys and typewriters and of particles
whirling in the void.

The next step is to think about the properties that an object probably will have if it is made by an intelligent designer and probably won’t have if it isn’t. The problem here is that there are
many kinds of possible intelligent designers, and many kinds of possible mindless processes. Is there a property that a natural object probably will have, no matter what sort of possible intelligent designer made it? I am confident that the answer to this question is no. Is there a property that it probably won’t have, no matter what sort of possible mindless process made it?

As for this second question, here I am in agreement with Behe – we really don’t know. But ignorance does not constitute a reason to reject the possibility that what we observe is due to mindless natural processes that we have not yet considered and conclude that what we observe must be due to intelligent design
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_EAllusion
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Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _EAllusion »

Along with Pearcey and Thaxton, Stark is the other major source of this argument. Mormons will best know Stark from his generous predictions of Mormon population growth.
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Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _EAllusion »

Kevin Graham wrote:In other words, you refuse to own up to your mistake. As a recap, you accused me of quoting creationist sources verbatim.


Uh, you did that in that thread. Your quoteming that was uncovered by me clearly was quoted, verbatim, from a creationist source. Do you deny this?
You have to make this argument by misunderstanding what it is the two arguments are and then you refuse to provide any evidence that I have in fact used these sources. You've blamed it on a bad search engine. Now you blame it on... what? When will you find your balls and own up to your mistake?


Now the search engine comment I made in this thread is in reference to Hoyle. Surely you can keep this straight? Perhaps not.
You refuse to justify your use of the word creationist so until you do all your wailing and moaning about people who you call creatonists, is just a charade. I present two objective sources for the meaning of the term, none of which bode well with your self-serving caricature.


I didn't read your post where you presented "objective sources" for meanings of the term, but for what it is worth I did point to the world's leading expert in the history of creationism concurring with my view. I think my use is fairly standard.

You haven't read Flew's book, OBVIOUSLY, You rely on popular snppets, probably from the talkorigins blogs and the infidels.org e-lists.

Are you famliar with what actually happened with Flew? When Flew's new belief in God was revealed for the world to examine, it was done with a correspondence with Richard Carrier. In it, he explained his reasons for belief. That was the sum total of his comment on the matter initially. I merely quoted what Flew said. I was able to quote it because I remember that event, what with me discussing it in detail at the time. Flew's argument at that time, an argument that I also quoted you explicitly making, is a creationist argument. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult point. Perhaps it's easier for you to argue over this. I don't know.
This is why it s pointless with you guys. Whenever I try to get into the deeper issues, all you do is respond with "You're just ignorant of biology," and pretend that counts as an answer.


This is false. I have, again, responded to you at length about many an issue, including biology. I did so in the very thread I pulled so many quotes from. Do I have to quote myself again? I guess I should incompetence instead of malice here, but I don't know.
But you never answer my question or concern about rondom mutations. It seems you don't know how to converse with anyone who isn't ether a die-hard evolutionist or an anti-evolutionist.
[/quote]

Uh, Kevin, the argument you are making is an argument against evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory says that unguided processes like natural selection, mutation, drift, bottlenecking, sexual selection... account for the features you say they don't. Regardless of whether it is a good argument, it is an argument against what evolutionary biology says.
_EAllusion
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Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _EAllusion »

Barr didn't make an argument there. He made an assertion. He says the existence of laws that lead to the production of finches clearly evidences purpose. (He vaguely alludes to a fine-tuning argument). Uh, it doesn't? Is that the refutation you want? 'Cause he isn't sustaining any kind of argument beyond suggesting there needs to be an explanation for the existence of a universe that tends towards the production of Finches. He just takes design as a given.

As a secondary matter, this is supposed to rehabilitate Paley. But that wasn't Paley's specific argument, so it doesn't make much sense to say Paley was right. A different argument that also concludes eyeballs were designed doesn't transform Paley's into a good one. Further, Paley's argument isn't wrong simply because we have discovered mindless processes that can account for the features of eyes Paley went on about, though that alone is a problem for him. Paley's argument was wrong prior to that discovery. It its original form the problem has to do with question-begging or picking his solution by rejecting naïve alternatives (depending on how you structure it), which also likely would be a problem for Barr if he were to actually make an argument. I guess if his mere assertion counts as an argument to you, then he is begging the question.
_JohnStuartMill
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Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

EAllusion wrote:JSM -

Natural selection has the capacity to weed out superfluous traits because traits take resources to produce and so its sometimes more efficient to just lose them rather than continuing to pool resources into them to the detriment of other possiblities. Natural selection involves tradeoffs. But the main problem in the argument here is a false dichotomy. Natural selection isn't the only mechanism of evolutionary change here. Neutral drift works just fine. But as far as natural selection resulting in the loss of relatively extraneous traits goes, I think this post can explain a classic example of how this goes well:

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/07 ... .html#more


You're right, I forgot about genetic drift.

Thanks for the article, too.
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_Sethbag
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Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _Sethbag »

Kevin Graham wrote:Our consciousness, creative abilities, rational faculties, our unique sense of moralty/altruism, our advanced intelligence, etc. We are clearly the pinnacle of creation. [emphasis added]

Wow. When you read your own words back, they don't smack you as being even a little pretentious? There's this entire universe out there, billions of galaxies, each containing billions of stars, with possibly billions of planets out there inhabited by various forms of life. And yet homo sapiens is clearly the pinnacle of creation?

I don't think this is at all clear. I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for some good evidence that homo sapiens is clearly the pinnacle of creation.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_EAllusion
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Re: Bad News for Creationists: Plausible Abiogenesis Path Found

Post by _EAllusion »

DonBradley wrote:
marg wrote:Kevin if it was true as you say, that Christianity gave rise to science then science should have begun when Christianity began, but that is not the case.


Hi Marg, this is a non sequitir. If I "give rise" to a child, this doesn't mean that child must have been born when I was.

Kevin is employing an argument laid out in detail by sociologist of religion Rodney Stark in his recent books. If you want to assess the case made for this view, that would be the place to start. I haven't seen any lengthy response to Stark on this point, but I'm sure there will be.

It really wasn't until the 18th century in what is known as the enlightenment age that science began and the scientific method was based upon the non-reliance of explanations for phenomena attributed to the supernatural.


This isn't true either. Science got going in force prior to the Enlightenment and was one of the contributors to the Enlightenment. The Renaissance saw a flowering of science prior to the rise of the Deism you mention. And it is now widely recognized that the Renaissance built to a great extent, in science, technology, and commerce, on developments of the high Middle Ages.

And even Deism adopted the order-producing God of Aquinas, et al., though it had him not act in the world after the Creation.

Don

Kevin clearly is more influenced by the Pearcey side of things given his illusion point. (No, Kevin, I'm not saying you specifically are quoting Pearcey, though you very well may be adopting sources influenced by her). While Rodney Stark is making the same kind of argument, I don't think he argues that, "Before Christianity took over, the popular belief was that the universe was just an illusion...So there was nothing for the modern scientific method to work with as far as making predictions, experiments, measurements, etc. This method was born from the Christian premise that the universe was indeed real..."

On the surface, that seems insane. At least when it comes to Pearcey it's not as simple as asserting that people outside of Christian theism adopted views you or I would describe as thinking the universe an illusion. For instance, she's not saying that people thought the universe is an illusion like you see in Eastern mystical traditions. Rather, she instead argues that other views, when you really think about it, assert the universe is an illusion.*

(Come to think of it, I now recall Thomas E. Woods making this argument as well. Or at least I recall someone continually linking his arguments on the subject. Go figure.)

* Hey Gad, remember that brilliant essay on how buying milk assumes the Christian worldview? You know how in it there were these extremely facile critiques of other religious views to show they destroy knowledge? It's the same arguments as far as that goes.
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