To Whom is God Talking?

[_AlmaBound]

I for one am convinced you take it seriously, Nehor.

What do you make of the statement of those who saw the outcome of that contest?:

1 Kings 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.

In the Hebrew it is rendered quite a bit differently, interestingly.

YHWH, he is the Elohim. Fairly reminiscent of the Shema, no?

[_The Nehor]

I for one am convinced you take it seriously, Nehor.

What do you make of the statement of those who saw the outcome of that contest?:

1 Kings 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.

In the Hebrew it is rendered quite a bit differently, interestingly.

YHWH, he is the Elohim. Fairly reminiscent of the Shema, no?

An interesting comment, hadn't read it that way. Looking at the verse in my version I have, "Jehovah, he is the God." I think I'll update.

I think Elijah's reaction to the event shows that this was an expression not of faith but of fear and a general respect of power. While in a fervor they accepted God in the next chapter we find Elijah in despair, wishing to die, convinced he had failed. Doesn't look like the awe of God stuck.

[_Jersey Girl]

truth dancer,

I'm not sure that I understand what's wrong about one thinking that God communicates with them. Can you explain why you think it's wrong/odd/ or whatever?

Likewise, I'm not sure that I understand what's wrong about one thinking that space aliens communicates with them. Can you explain why you think it's wrong/odd/ or whatever?

Nowhere in my comments did I state that I thought that there was something wrong about one thinking that space aliens communicate with them.

Did you think that rhetorical device makes my question seem more absurd?

In a recent thread, Sethbag, who appears to support scientific theory, wrote:

There's this entire universe out there, billions of galaxies, each containing billions of stars, with possibly billions of planets out there inhabited by various forms of life.

Do you agree with that statement, Morrisey? That there are (possibly) billions of planets inhabited by various forms of life?

If you agree, why would you discount that one of those life forms could communicate with us?

Do scientists discount that possibility?

[_AlmaBound]

An interesting comment, hadn't read it that way. Looking at the verse in my version I have, "Jehovah, he is the God." I think I'll update.

I think Elijah's reaction to the event shows that this was an expression not of faith but of fear and a general respect of power. While in a fervor they accepted God in the next chapter we find Elijah in despair, wishing to die, convinced he had failed. Doesn't look like the awe of God stuck.

There are really two things that I noticed, and now three that I guess should be explored.

The first was that it was the reaction of the people that mattered more than Elijah and his comfort and part in the episode, though your point is interesting as well and I'd like to continue with that thought. Elijah, much like we are told later about John the Baptist, "becomes less" as the Lord becomes more. Or so to speak.

However, I think there is more to the expression the people used in their reaction, and the words they chose to convey their belief that YHWH, or Jehovah as you say, is the Elohim.

But as to Elijah being alone - the story goes on and Elijah is told that he is in fact not alone, there are 7,000 others:

1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

So while Elijah might have felt alone, he wasn't. Not only were there 7,000 others, the Lord, as the story goes, was also with him.

But at any rate, I thought you might find the use of the names YHWH and Elohim in this particular story interesting - there are many other verses that speak of YHWH Elohim in a similar manner.

[_Morrissey]

truth dancer,

I'm not sure that I understand what's wrong about one thinking that God communicates with them. Can you explain why you think it's wrong/odd/ or whatever?

Likewise, I'm not sure that I understand what's wrong about one thinking that space aliens communicates with them. Can you explain why you think it's wrong/odd/ or whatever?

Nowhere in my comments did I state that I thought that there was something wrong about one thinking that space aliens communicate with them.

Did you think that rhetorical device makes my question seem more absurd?

In a recent thread, Sethbag, who appears to support scientific theory, wrote:

There's this entire universe out there, billions of galaxies, each containing billions of stars, with possibly billions of planets out there inhabited by various forms of life.

Do you agree with that statement, Morrisey? That there are (possibly) billions of planets inhabited by various forms of life?

If you agree, why would you discount that one of those life forms could communicate with us?

Do scientists discount that possibility?[/quote]

I neither discount the possibility of a supreme being nor the existence of alien races. In fact, I assume that there is intelligent life on the billions of aforementioned planets.

All this, however, is pure conjecture. There is no objectively verifiable evidence of intelligent life on other planets--nobody can objectively demonstrate that they have seen, talked to, heard, etc. space aliens. People who claim that they communicate with space aliens, therefore, are generally thought to be delusional, including by many religious folks.

Similarly, there is no objectively verifiable evidence of a supreme being--nobody can objectively demonstrate that they have seen, talked to, heard etc. a supreme being. Yet, people who claim that they communicate with a supreme being are often not thought to be delusional (that is, unless, they actually claim to have seen him or talked directly to him, can't make your claims too outlandish).

That the one is evidence of delusion and the other not is purely a matter of social and religious convention. From where I sit, the plausibility of the latter is no better than that of the former.

I am interested why, outside of social/religious convention, believers may think that the latter is more plausible than the former.

While we are at it, do you think people communicate with space aliens?

[_truth dancer]

Hi Morrissey,

Good points, and welcome to the board!

In addition, even if there were divine beings out there communing with humans, how can we trust them?

If there is one who claims to be the one and only, how do we know this is true? Perhaps there are millions of beings trying to get people to believe in them? Or maybe we are just pawns in a big game of the Gods... like humans playing with ants, or scientists toying with bacteria? Or maybe there are all sorts of otherworldly creatures talking to various humans trying to help them but not understanding humans at all? Or maybe the true God of the Universe is really a horrible creature and trying to convince humans "he" is really great?

The thing is, all sorts of guys are claiming God is talking to them, and who knows how many men think they are so special that God chose them to be God's spokesman, seems reality is anyone's guess.

Aside from the fact that many religions and cults proclaim truths that make NO sense whatsoever, and rely on faith to believe, it seems trusting a spiritual being could be just as dangerous as trusting imaginary humans?

~td~

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Hi Morrissey,

Good points, and welcome to the board!

In addition, even if there were divine beings out there communing with humans, how can we trust them?

If there is one who claims to be the one and only, how do we know this is true? Perhaps there are millions of beings trying to get people to believe in them? Or maybe we are just pawns in a big game of the Gods... like humans playing with ants, or scientists toying with bacteria? Or maybe there are all sorts of otherworldly creatures talking to various humans trying to help them but not understanding humans at all? Or maybe the true God of the Universe is really a horrible creature and trying to convince humans "he" is really great?

The thing is, all sorts of guys are claiming God is talking to them, and who knows how many men think they are so special that God chose them to be God's spokesman, seems reality is anyone's guess.

Aside from the fact that many religions and cults proclaim truths that make NO sense whatsoever, and rely on faith to believe, it seems trusting a spiritual being could be just as dangerous as trusting imaginary humans?

~td~

And yet there are some who would have us believe in a God who uses prophecy to communicate with mankind ... failing again and again, his followers screw it up, false prophets lead people astray, it gets so bad that God employs floods, new dispensations, whatever it takes to get his message out ... isn't that the definition of insanty, to keep doing the same thing hoping it will turn out differently?

I have a simple rule. Anyone who starts out saying something like, "God told me to tell you," well, it didn't come from God. I insist on believing that God is better than that. Which will earn me a condo in hell if the Bible God is true in any of its forms, but I'm willing to take the chance.

By the way -- Hi, Jen

[_The Nehor]

And yet there are some who would have us believe in a God who uses prophecy to communicate with mankind ... failing again and again, his followers screw it up, false prophets lead people astray, it gets so bad that God employs floods, new dispensations, whatever it takes to get his message out ... isn't that the definition of insanty, to keep doing the same thing hoping it will turn out differently?

No, he wants it to turn out like it did last time. Save everyone who will listen. Part of the accepted wisdom is that most will reject it.

I have a simple rule. Anyone who starts out saying something like, "God told me to tell you," well, it didn't come from God. I insist on believing that God is better than that. Which will earn me a condo in hell if the Bible God is true in any of its forms, but I'm willing to take the chance.

God told me to tell you that the condos in hell are not rent-controlled.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

And yet there are some who would have us believe in a God who uses prophecy to communicate with mankind ... failing again and again, his followers screw it up, false prophets lead people astray, it gets so bad that God employs floods, new dispensations, whatever it takes to get his message out ... isn't that the definition of insanty, to keep doing the same thing hoping it will turn out differently?

No, he wants it to turn out like it did last time. Save everyone who will listen. Part of the accepted wisdom is that most will reject it.

I have a simple rule. Anyone who starts out saying something like, "God told me to tell you," well, it didn't come from God. I insist on believing that God is better than that. Which will earn me a condo in hell if the Bible God is true in any of its forms, but I'm willing to take the chance.

God told me to tell you that the condos in hell are not rent-controlled.

Most will reject it -- that's "accepted wisdom?" Wrong on so many levels. It makes God look bad and it makes you look bad. I hope the two of you will be happy together.

[_harmony]

Clearly some of the people here have never seen "Men in Black".