Implications Of Discovering The Body Of Jesus.

[_Sethbag]

Actually, this needn't be much of a problem at all. And the apologetic mental gymnastics aren't even that severe.

Everyone knows that the body one gets back in the resurrection isn't really the same physical body that one had before. What about people who were cremated? What about people buried years ago whose bodies are nothing more than a few bone fragments now? What about people whose bodies fertilized the soil that produced food that other humans ultimately ate, so that later people shared the same atoms with earlier people? All of these can be answered with the idea that a new, perfected physical body is created by God, and the person's spirit is joined to it in resurrection.

Given the resurrected body need not be the same actual physical lump of matter that was the person's mortal body before they died, there's no reason the resurrection of Christ needs to have caused his dead mortal body to disappear from the tomb.

What's wrong is that all of you guys who have assumed that the reanimation of Jesus's original, dead body was necessary are simply believing in something that scripture does not require. You need to adjust your paradigm and you'll be all set.

But why did Mary Magdalene find the tomb empty? Good question, but we have to remember her frame of mind, and the level of her understanding. She probably would not have correctly understood the concept of the real resurrection, so God was acting in a way she could comprehend, and rendered the dead body of Jesus invisible to her, whether by moving it, or hiding it, it doesn't matter. The important thing was that she would comprehend that Jesus was Risen, not the mechanics of how that happened. And mission accomplished!

Anyhow, that's probably how this would be dealt with. There's nothing here that would cause a true believer all that much of a problem.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
Yes. I would say that too.

Well then -- it's refreshing to hear somebody who know what he believes
and is willing to state it for the record. I'm always impressed with that.

But, back to the Jehovah of the Book of Ether -- had a hair fallen from his
exhibited finger, would its DNA, upon inspection, have matched the
DNA found in a hair fallen from Jesus' head in Galilee? -- or from the "Son's"
head, in the "sacred grove" in 1820?

How could the DNA of Mary, the wife of Joseph, have been a component of
the oft-mentioned finger in Ether?

Unless Jehovah, as an exalted man, temporarily took upon himself the
tabernacle of flesh, known as Jesus the son of Mary ---- and then discarded
that Mary-born second body after the crucifixion.

Returning to the celestialized body temporarily left "behind the veil," and
taking occupancy of his "old self," the Jehovah who appeared to Joseph
Smith in 1820 would thus be the same as the Jehovah's whose finger was
seen by the Jaredite prophet -- all without the inclusion of Mary's DNA.

Correct?

UD

[Anonymous]

I disagree UD.

The Jesus body that the BoJ saw would have been merely his "spirit body". Nobody knows if spirit bodies have DNA, but if it had some DNA-like counterpart, it would have been the DNA-like combination of Elohim and one of his harem of Celestial wives, not the DNA of Mary.

Then Jesus was born, and his physical body had the DNA of Mary. Jesus died, and in the resurrection, his perfected physical, Celestial body would be of a composition unknown to us, and whether it has DNA or not is likewise not known.

The one snag here is the idea that Elohim physically sired Jesus's physical body. We only know of human bodies with two sets of chromosomes, one from the father, and one from the mother, so it's hard for us to imagine the Elohim-sired body being different from that. True believers would not be overly taxed, however, to imagine some scenario where human DNA was not required in Jesus's physical body on the Elohim side of the gene (indeed, it was the Elohim Celestial DNA-like equivalent in counterpart to his Mary human DNA that made him literally a God on Earth during his life).

[_Uncle Dale]

I disagree UD.

The Jesus body that the BoJ saw would have been merely his "spirit body". Nobody knows if spirit bodies have DNA, but if it had some DNA-like counterpart, it would have been the DNA-like combination of Elohim and one of his harem of Celestial wives, not the DNA of Mary.

The Jesus was born, and his physical body had the DNA of Mary. Jesus died, and in the resurrection, his perfected physical, Celestial body would be of a composition unknown to us, and whether it has DNA or not is likewise not known.

The one snag here is the idea that Elohim physically sired Jesus's physical body. We only know of human bodies with two sets of chromosomes, one from the father, and one from the mother, so it's hard for us to imagine the Elohim-sired body being different from that. True believers would not be overly taxed, however, to imagine some scenario where human DNA was not required in Jesus's physical body on the Elohim side of the gene (indeed, it was the Elohim Celestial DNA-like equivalent in counterpart to his Mary human DNA that made him literally a God on Earth during his life).

Parley P. Pratt must be turning over in his grave about now. After all his
castigating the Protestants and Catholics for teaching that God is a Spirit,
we now ask Mormons to return to the "spirit body" notion of Jehovah!

Jehovah once was as man is now -- then through eternal progression gains
naught but a "spirit body" with no flesh and bone?

We may need to hold a seance here, and summon up the personage of
President Brigham Young, to tell us what the REAL skinny is.

As for myself, I reject the Brother of Jared, Jared, the Tower of Babel, the
displayed finger, and ocean-crossing barges the length of a tree altogether.

If we survive death as individuals, eternally, a whole lot of Buddhists are
in for one hell of a surprise (pun intended).

UD

[_Sethbag]

I reject all of that too. But if you've read the Book of Mormon lately, in Ether Jesus does actually say this is the body of my spirit, as distinct from a physical body.

Mormons necessarily believe that the Jehovah of the Old Testament was Jesus in spirit form, not yet having been born with a physical body. The Book of Mormon spirit Jesus of Ether goes along with that. I'm not sure PPP would have disagreed here - if so, he hadn't read the Book of Mormon very carefully.

[_Ray A]

If the Talpiot tomb did indeed contain the bones of Jesus of Nazareth, and if he did have a wife and at least 1 child, then I think it would be wonderful. It would prove that he existed as a real person, and people would then just have to sift the myth from the historical reality.

Mary, I think it would force many to rethink, but it's already clear to me that much of the Jesus legend is shrouded in myth. Both Jefferson and Tolstoy rejected a "supernatural" Jesus, yet both felt that there was much worth preserving. I tend to think along these lines. The miraculous elements were clearly intended to bring more "power" to the message, since they were competing with many other "gods". A Jesus who merely taught the Beatitudes would be unremarkable. He has to transcend the world and natural elements, somewhat like Mithras. Christianity conquered Rome and replaced Mithraism, but it would not have done so without supernatural elements.

This little piece and writings like this has got apologists for Christianity hot under the collar.

Mithraism - Dress Rehearsal for Christianity:

He had sacrificed himself to redeem mankind. Descending into the underworld, he had conquered death and had risen to life again on the third day. The holy day for this sun god was, of course, Sunday (Christians continued to follow the Jewish Sabbath until the fourth century). His many titles included ‘the Truth,’ ‘the Light,’ and ‘the Good Shepherd.’ For those who worshipped him, invoking the name of Mithras healed the sick and worked miracles. Mithras could dispense mercy and grant immortality; to his devotees he offered hope. By drinking his blood and eating his flesh (by proxy, from a slain bull) they too could conquer death. On a Day of Judgement those already dead would be raised back to life.

[_Uncle Dale]

I reject all of that too. But if you've read the Book of Mormon lately, in Ether Jesus does actually say this is the body of my spirit, as distinct from a physical body.

Mormons necessarily believe that the Jehovah of the Old Testament was Jesus in spirit form, not yet having been born with a physical body. The Book of Mormon spirit Jesus of Ether goes along with that. I'm not sure PPP would have disagreed here - if so, he hadn't read the Book of Mormon very carefully.

Her is a fair sample of Parleyism:

Here then is the Methodist God, without either eyes, ears or mouth!!!
and yet man was created after the image of God; but this could not
apply to the Methodist God for he has no image or likeness The Methodist
God can neither be Jehovah nor Jesus Christ; for Jehovah showed his face
to Moses and seventy elders of Israel, and his feet too: he also wrote with
his own finger on the tablets of stone. Isaiah informs us that his arm is
not shortened; that his ear is not dull of hearing, &c., and that he will
proceed to make bare his arm in the eyes of all the nations.

And Ezek. says, "his fury shall come up in his face," and Zech., c. 14 says
"his feet shall stand in that day, upon the mount of olives," and they
which behold shall say, what are these wounds in thy hands, and in thy
feet, &c. Consequently, Methodism is a system of idolatry. ... etc., etc.
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/prt1838b.htm#pg42c

This was back before the Mormons had fully equated Jehovah with Jesus,
but Parley argues that Jehovah had all the bodily parts of a human being,
and was not simply a spirit.

No talk here of any pre-physical "spirit body;" and I'm sure that the apostle
meant to say that Jehovah was just as "solid" as any other physical being.

But, all of the to one side -- if Jesus is/was "The Eternal God" of the Book of Mormon
title-page, then he is the God of President Snow's famous couplet and
once was as man is now -- progressed -- to become one of many gods --
sat in the grand and glorious council alongside Eloheim and Lucifer, etc. etc.

If my reconstruction is incorrect, then which of the three had DNA during
the era of that "council?" -- only Eloheim? Jehovah and Lucifer had never
progressed from manhood to godhood (as Eloheim had?) --

If that were the case, there would be no need for Mormons to undergo
physical eternal progression -- they could be exalted in the pre-existence.

This theological puzzle seems to be missing a few parts, methinks.

UD

[_Sethbag]

This was back before the Mormons had fully equated Jehovah with Jesus,
but Parley argues that Jehovah had all the bodily parts of a human being,
and was not simply a spirit.

No. Not simply an ethereal essence I could buy. But you have to understand the Mormon concept of a spirit. It has eyes, it has a nose, feet, hands, ears, etc. It looks just like a person does to us, only whiter. None of what Parley said contradicts this notion, and I'm not at all clear how you derive from what Parley said that Jehovah's body must have been physical. Body parts, yes. Physical body, no. This is the Mormon "spirit body". The scripture in Ether actually lays it out quite well - it looks just like a physical body, but isn't physical.

Or, if you get into Joseph's "midichlorian" goof - it really is physical, just more "refined". Whatever that means.

No talk here of any pre-physical "spirit body;" and I'm sure that the apostle
meant to say that Jehovah was just as "solid" as any other physical being.

And I'm sure you're wrong. And I have the advantage of being much more intimately aquainted with what Mormons actually believe on the subject.

But, all of the to one side -- if Jesus is/was "The Eternal God" of the Book of Mormon
title-page, then he is the God of President Snow's famous couplet and
once was as man is now -- progressed -- to become one of many gods --
sat in the grand and glorious council alongside Eloheim and Lucifer, etc. etc.

If my reconstruction is incorrect, then which of the three had DNA during
the era of that "council?" -- only Eloheim? Jehovah and Lucifer had never
progressed from manhood to godhood (as Eloheim had?) --

A good Mormon would have to shrug and say it's not known whether Celestial bodies actually have DNA or not. But Elohim would have been the only one of the three (of Elohim, Jehovah, and Lucifer) who was a perfected, physical being. The other two had spirit bodies only.

If that were the case, there would be no need for Mormons to undergo
physical eternal progression -- they could be exalted in the pre-existence.

This theological puzzle seems to be missing a few parts, methinks.

Yeah, well you're not the first one to think that. I wondered too how Jesus could have created worlds and served as the Jehovah of the Old Testament without a physical body.

I guess the best answer, and still just a Conjecture of Seth the Apostate, would be that it is possible, in the Mormon Universe, for a person only possessing a spirit body to hold and wield priesthood power. It would not, however, be possible for them to procreate. So Jehovah, before his birth to Mary, could have acted like God (Jehovah) in exercising priesthood power over this Earth, but he would only have been "half a god" in the sense that the other half of gods, according to Mormonism, is the procreation of spirit children to populate one's own universe. Note that the Jehovah of the Old Testament was wielding authority not in his own universe, but in his dad Elohim's.

[_Uncle Dale]

...but he would only have been "half a god"
...

OK -- it all makes sense now.

A being like Jehovah can organize entire worlds and need never have been
married (let alone a polygamist).

A being like Joseph Smith can organize nothing on a cosmic scale, even
though he has dozens of wives, a glorified body of flesh and bone, etc.

So -- no need to go the Jo Smith route. Just win Eloheim's favor, and we
can skip ever having to be born into a tabernacle of clay, getting married, etc.

Next time the LDS missionaries call at the door, I'm locking it behind them,
until they explain how all of this can be.

UD

[_bcspace]

Well then -- it's refreshing to hear somebody who know what he believes and is willing to state it for the record. I'm always impressed with that.

You're welcome. I always try to put my money where my mouth is.

But, back to the Jehovah of the Book of Ether -- had a hair fallen from his exhibited finger, would its DNA, upon inspection, have matched the
DNA found in a hair fallen from Jesus' head in Galilee? -- or from the "Son's"
head, in the "sacred grove" in 1820?

I don't know. I'm not sure if there is a correspondence between spirit body DNA and the DNA of a physical body. I like to believe there is.....

How could the DNA of Mary, the wife of Joseph, have been a component of the oft-mentioned finger in Ether?

Exactly. Unless of course, there is a correspondence. If this were the case, an interesting effect of this would be the possibilty of knowing/predicting who your parents are before you are born. I know some LDS believe it's all planned out. I like to think it's more random than that despite the principle of foreordination.

Unless Jehovah, as an exalted man, temporarily took upon himself the
tabernacle of flesh, known as Jesus the son of Mary ---- and then discarded
that Mary-born second body after the crucifixion.

But we know scripturally that he is tied to that body forever. He cannot lose it else he dies again.

Returning to the celestialized body temporarily left "behind the veil," and taking occupancy of his "old self," the Jehovah who appeared to Joseph
Smith in 1820 would thus be the same as the Jehovah's whose finger was
seen by the Jaredite prophet -- all without the inclusion of Mary's DNA.

Correct?

Only if there was the aforementioned correspondence imho.