Michael Ash blames "naïve" church members for apostasy

[_Sethbag]

by the way how many is a fifth of good ol country whiskey ?

750ml. It's about a fifth of a US gallon. It's a term only (to my knowledge) used with regard to distilled spirits.

[_Paracelsus]

by the way how many is a fifth of good ol country whiskey ?

750ml. It's about a fifth of a US gallon. It's a term only (to my knowledge) used with regard to distilled spirits.

It seems to be enough to see anything.
Yea, even without fasting.

[_Pokatator]

Well okay lets do test number two: In relief society as you begin to teach from the manual, announce that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet who could not keep his pants on. Also, say a few other choice things that may not be that positive about the guy. And then claim personal revelation and begin to speak openly about Joseph Smith being a fallen prophet based on your own inspiration. Lets see what happens. I am sure that your own personal revelation will hold a lot of weight. Good luck.

Thanx for describing how an organization, even a cult, keeps its members in line.

[_harmony]

Well okay lets do test number two: In relief society as you begin to teach from the manual, announce that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet who could not keep his pants on. Also, say a few other choice things that may not be that positive about the guy. And then claim personal revelation and begin to speak openly about Joseph Smith being a fallen prophet based on your own inspiration. Lets see what happens. I am sure that your own personal revelation will hold a lot of weight. Good luck.

You don't seem to get it, why me. This is personal inspiration, not for public consumption. I'm not required to share it, and I feel no need to share. If someone asks me, I tell them what I know, but it's not up to me to correct anything in the church, even when it's obviously wrong. I am not a universal lover of mankind and if people want to follow Joseph down to hell, then that's up to them. Far be it from me to try to change their personal path. I, only the other hand, will follow my own path.

[_BartBurk]

I left the LDS Church mainly because the LDS Church essentially mandated belief in the white-washed history of Mormonism. I'm not suggesting the LDS have to spill all of the beans about their history mainly because the beans have been spilled in so many places. They just need to quit demanding that people believe it. If I were an LDS leader I would continue to emphasize conservative moral values based on the teachings of their scriptures and get rid of all of those Priesthood/Relief Society lessons about their prophets. I would use Priesthood meetings to train men how to be better citizens, church leaders and family members based on values found in the standard works without reference to what Brigham Young or Wilford Woodruff had to say about it. The same would apply to Relief Society. The only personality cult which would be emphasized would be Jesus Christ and his teachings. And I would only have Priesthood meetings once a month. Then reduce the Sunday meetings to two hours -- one hour of sacrament meeting and one hour of Sunday School/Priesthood/Relief Society. I would only have one youth speaker and one adult speaker and more singing/prayers. And I'd probably make sacrament the last part of the meeting rather than the first part to emphasize its importance. I'd discourage any talk of the Restoration and the history of the church and emphasize right living and following Christ's example.

And the temple? Let all the members enter without conditions rather than interrogating them every couple of years. In other words, treat people like adults -- encourage them to repent, but let them do it as they feel the need unrelated to temple worthiness. Let each adult judge his own worthiness to attend rather than having the Bishop decide. Assume people are doing what is right rather than assuming they need an interview to repent. And don't divide families at the temple doors. That's the worst thing the church does.

If members are naïve it is because they aren't treated like adults. Change that. Make the church Christ-centered instead of church-centered. Grant Palmer was right.

[_Yong Xi]

And the temple? Let all the members enter without conditions rather than interrogating them every couple of years. In other words, treat people like adults -- encourage them to repent, but let them do it as they feel the need unrelated to temple worthiness. Let each adult judge his own worthiness to attend rather than having the Bishop decide. Assume people are doing what is right rather than assuming they need an interview to repent. And don't divide families at the temple doors. That's the worst thing the church does.

This, effectively destroys the Church's business model. Temple worthiness is predicated on paying a full tithe. Tithing revenues would plummet.

[_BartBurk]

And the temple? Let all the members enter without conditions rather than interrogating them every couple of years. In other words, treat people like adults -- encourage them to repent, but let them do it as they feel the need unrelated to temple worthiness. Let each adult judge his own worthiness to attend rather than having the Bishop decide. Assume people are doing what is right rather than assuming they need an interview to repent. And don't divide families at the temple doors. That's the worst thing the church does.

This, effectively destroys the Church's business model. Temple worthiness is predicated on paying a full tithe. Tithing revenues would plummet.

Why should a church be run based on a business model as if people didn't matter? And most of them are Republicans who believe revenues go up when taxes are reduced -- would they make up the money they lose because more people would be paying 2.5% because they stayed active? Right now they either get all or nothing. A lot of people would continue to pay 10 percent, but a lot more who don't pay anything might start contributing 2.5% if it wasn't about worthiness. Right now if you pay only nine percent you're considered a great sinner so they pay nothing since there is no motivation to pay anything if you can't pay 10%.

[_Sethbag]

Bart, all of this talk about what the church "should" do sounds like you think the church is still true or something, and it's just "not doing it right".

I didn't leave the church because it's not doing it right, I've left (at least mentally checked out, and by and large stopped attending) because it's not true, and never was.

Let's suppose the church acted like you say, and made the changes you want made, made temple attendance possible without interviews, with no tithing requirement, church services were changed in the ways you recommend, etc.

Would that make Joseph Smith have actually seen and talked to, and been empowered by the Creator of the Universe, instead of having merely claimed to be as an imposter?

That's the thing. In these forums I read a lot of disgruntled former members who go on about all the changes the church ought to make, and the problem is, none of that bears at all on whether the church is actually true or not.

Personally, I think the church should go right on hating gays, boring people on Sundays, extracting their 10% from people who can ill afford to pay, teaching silliness like the global flood, no death till the Fall, Book of Abraham as authentic ancient text, Word of Wisdom absurdity like no green tea but all the donuts you want, treating women like 2nd class citizens, and in many other ways acting every bit the stagnant, manmade organization that it is and always has been. It just makes it that much easier for people to see it for what it really is, to the extent that some within the church manage to pull it off. For those outside the church, its true nature could not be any more obvious. And that's a good thing, IMHO.

[_why me]

Her personal revelation would continue to hold total weight to her. Of course it most likely would not for others in the room. Nor with he leaders. And in our Church, where dissent is highly frowned upon, she might be given the boot.

But of course you know that. And you know that she is not making the point you are. So your scenario is irrelevant.

She is trying. Harmony is not exactly with it when it come to personal revelation. Her personal revelation about church matters does not Trump the GA's. If she disagrees with the GA's or publically declares Joseph Smith to be a fallen prophet and speaks up on that issue, she will find herself in the bishop's office rather fast.

[_why me]

Well okay lets do test number two: In relief society as you begin to teach from the manual, announce that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet who could not keep his pants on. Also, say a few other choice things that may not be that positive about the guy. And then claim personal revelation and begin to speak openly about Joseph Smith being a fallen prophet based on your own inspiration. Lets see what happens. I am sure that your own personal revelation will hold a lot of weight. Good luck.

Thanx for describing how an organization, even a cult, keeps its members in line.

Well not exactly. If I attend a catholic service and speak disrespectively of the Pope, I do think that certain things will happen to me. And if I claim that the pope is a fallen pope and some other popes before him were also fallen and I begin to teach that in catechism, I do believe that I will lose my job. What do you think?

And likewise for all other faiths. True harmony comes when the church has one voice.