Michael Ash blames "naïve" church members for apostasy

[_why me]

You don't seem to get it, why me. This is personal inspiration, not for public consumption. I'm not required to share it, and I feel no need to share. If someone asks me, I tell them what I know, but it's not up to me to correct anything in the church, even when it's obviously wrong. I am not a universal lover of mankind and if people want to follow Joseph down to hell, then that's up to them. Far be it from me to try to change their personal path. I, only the other hand, will follow my own path.

I get it perfectly well and I am very familiar with rationalization. But the fact remains: the church that you belong to believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet of god. No GA has claimed otherwise. No GA has said that he was a fallen prophet who could not keep his pants on. And that is your problem. I have no idea how you survive relief society since it is based on the teachings of Joseph Smith. But I am sure that you have found a way to keep quiet about your opinions and beliefs.

[_why me]

Bart, all of this talk about what the church "should" do sounds like you think the church is still true or something, and it's just "not doing it right".

That's the thing. In these forums I read a lot of disgruntled former members who go on about all the changes the church ought to make, and the problem is, none of that bears at all on whether the church is actually true or not.

My friend Bart is from the catholic board. I do believe that he left the LDS church but it has been a while since I have seen his posts and so I cannot be sure. I have usually responded to him there.

But Bart was calling for quite a few changes to the LDS church. Some were not so bad. it would be interesting to see just what he would change about the catholic mass. I think that I should ask him.

[_why me]

I left the LDS Church mainly because the LDS Church essentially mandated belief in the white-washed history of Mormonism. I'm not suggesting the LDS have to spill all of the beans about their history mainly because the beans have been spilled in so many places. They just need to quit demanding that people believe it. .

Thanks Bart. Now I want to ask you a question. What would you change about the catholic mass? I am interested to know your opinion. Surely something can be changed.

[_harmony]

Why should a church be run based on a business model as if people didn't matter? And most of them are Republicans who believe revenues go up when taxes are reduced -- would they make up the money they lose because more people would be paying 2.5% because they stayed active? Right now they either get all or nothing. A lot of people would continue to pay 10 percent, but a lot more who don't pay anything might start contributing 2.5% if it wasn't about worthiness. Right now if you pay only nine percent you're considered a great sinner so they pay nothing since there is no motivation to pay anything if you can't pay 10%.

Such thinking would mean they would open the books... what a concept!

[_why me]

Why should a church be run based on a business model as if people didn't matter? And most of them are Republicans who believe revenues go up when taxes are reduced -- would they make up the money they lose because more people would be paying 2.5% because they stayed active? Right now they either get all or nothing. A lot of people would continue to pay 10 percent, but a lot more who don't pay anything might start contributing 2.5% if it wasn't about worthiness. Right now if you pay only nine percent you're considered a great sinner so they pay nothing since there is no motivation to pay anything if you can't pay 10%.

The ten percent figure is in the Bible. You need to ask god why he put it there. It was not a figure made up by Joseph Smith.

[_why me]

Such thinking would mean they would open the books... what a concept!

What books? You do realize don't you that the critics would love to see the books and make some hay out of it. Better to keep the books out of view. Just be glad that you have a nice chapel and a nice temple nearby that is probably in good condition and not in a state of disrepair.

[_BartBurk]

Why should a church be run based on a business model as if people didn't matter? And most of them are Republicans who believe revenues go up when taxes are reduced -- would they make up the money they lose because more people would be paying 2.5% because they stayed active? Right now they either get all or nothing. A lot of people would continue to pay 10 percent, but a lot more who don't pay anything might start contributing 2.5% if it wasn't about worthiness. Right now if you pay only nine percent you're considered a great sinner so they pay nothing since there is no motivation to pay anything if you can't pay 10%.

The ten percent figure is in the Bible. You need to ask god why he put it there. It was not a figure made up by Joseph Smith.

10 percent is the Old Testament law -- it's not required in the New Testament. Haven't you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Here's an article that explains the Catholic view -- since you and me are Catholic we ought to know our religion:

http://catholicexchange.com/2002/11/12/80787/

If you want to give 10 percent you can. If you want to give 100% you can. Or if you don't think you're able to give anything, you don't have to. Tithing isn't in effect any longer, especially in a situation where the Church is not running a government as in Old Testament times.

[_BartBurk]

Such thinking would mean they would open the books... what a concept!

What books? You do realize don't you that the critics would love to see the books and make some hay out of it. Better to keep the books out of view. Just be glad that you have a nice chapel and a nice temple nearby that is probably in good condition and not in a state of disrepair.

The critics could only make hay out of it if there were something remiss. I'm sure your local parish and diocese make their books public, why shouldn't the Mormon Church do the same? Do you criticize your priest for the way your parish spends money? Is that a bad thing that he and your parish council are accountable for their decisions? Accountability is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[_why me]

The critics could only make hay out of it if there were something remiss. I'm sure your local parish and diocese make their books public, why shouldn't the Mormon Church do the same? Do you criticize your priest for the way your parish spends money? Is that a bad thing that he and your parish council are accountable for their decisions? Accountability is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I don't pay tithing to the LDS church but I can understand why it is required. It keeps everything running smoothly. And the fact is, tithing helps the church in poorer countries and also helps gives support for those people who live in poorer countries. Most Mormons are not rich but tithing helps keep everything afloat and it also provides funds in times of disaster and relief. And remember the fist apostles wanted members of the church to give of their substance and possession and live equally as brothers and sisters in Christ. it was much more radical than 10%.

My parish priest is awash in debt. Not enough money to do the repairs that are needed. And he doesn't know how to do a fund raiser. He needs a couple of sundays of 10% in the basket.

[_Morrissey]

Such thinking would mean they would open the books... what a concept!

What books? You do realize don't you that the critics would love to see the books and make some hay out of it. Better to keep the books out of view. Just be glad that you have a nice chapel and a nice temple nearby that is probably in good condition and not in a state of disrepair.

The financial books, that's what!

I cannot speak for others, but financial transparency is a good thing. Absent financial transparency, there can be no financial accountability.

These principles are more or less universally recognized in the business, government, and non-profit world, outside of the Mormon Church (and certain under-developed countries).

It is a good thing to have the means to hold those with power accountable for their decisions and actions. It yields a myriad of benefits, not least of all discouraging corruption and catching those who do cheat. It also creates incentives for the the powerful to act in the interests of their stakeholders.

Would you want to live in a world in which organizations, governments, and businesses lived by the same laizzes faire approach to financial transparency that you appear to endorse?

Since my wife continues to pay tithing and fast offerings out of our joint income pool, I have a legitimate expectation for LDS Inc. to divulge what it does with the money it receives in tithes and other offerings.