The Church Is Not True Podcasts/Beehive House Tour

[_why me]

While I do feel sorry for the sisters, I think everyone should be told the whole truth about the LDS church before making a commitment to it, that way they can make an informed decision based on facts. Remember, these two girls are giving up two whole years of their life to this organization based on what they have been told about Joseph Smith. I think the church is doing them a big disservice, and this will ultimately cost the church more members in the long run because they have not told the truth about their history. If they put all the cards on the table up front a few people may quit but in the long term more people will stick around and appreciate the honesty.

It is rather difficult what to tell and what not to tell. Now of course, all perspective missionaries can be required to read Rough Stone Rolliing by Bushman. Would that be enough or should they tell more? Who should decide what to tell and what not to tell? And would all be satisfied with what is being told and not being told? Probably not.

Should sister missionaries at BY's home be required to read all the discourses of BY? And be prepared to discuss everything he ever said in his discourses? Now the discourses are available from deseret Books. And the Joseph Smith papers will also be available as they are published. Lets see if anything is left out of the papers and then I can complain if there is something left out.

[_Sethbag]

And I do not want to rain on anyone's parade, but the three guys informed the young missionary that she could go to the church sponsored site to find out the information about Joseph Smith's wives.

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Notice the name in the upper right corner...

Yes, if you know where to look, you can find this. Now go to the church-sponsored website josephsmith.net and see how information you find about his plural wives. Which do you think people are going to visit first when looking for information on Joseph Smith's life?

[_Sethbag]

I've been in the church for five years, and looking back I feel like I was sold something. They told me all nice things to get me to join and were very deceptive. If they will lie to me about polygamy, blood atonement, the temple, the early church leaders, Joseph Smith, etc. then how do I know they are not lying about more important things like the Book of Mormon, D&C, PoGP, the current church leaders, etc? If someone will lie about a few things without hesitation then they will lie about other things no problem, so you never know when you can trust them.

I don't think very many members will outright lie to you. They may tell untruths because they themselves aren't very well informed, like the sisters in this podcast who probably believe that polygamy was all about caring for the widows and whatnot. Or they may omit things, believing you're only capable of receiving the milk, so they withhold the meat. But I doubt very many in the church will be malicious in whatever they tell you. They probably think whatever they tell you, or don't tell you, is for your own good. I think they're wrong about this, but this is what is motivating them, not malice.

[_Paracelsus]

And I do not want to rain on anyone's parade, but the three guys informed the young missionary that she could go to the church sponsored site to find out the information about Joseph Smith's wives.

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Notice the name in the upper right corner...

Yes, if you know where to look, you can find this. Now go to the church-sponsored website josephsmith.net and see how information you find about his plural wives. Which do you think people are going to visit first when looking for information on Joseph Smith's life?

I think about the "http://www.LDS.org/churchhistory/presidents/leaders.jsp" page. ( -> individual Significant Events )

The Joseph Smith page says
"1827 January 18 Age 21 Married Emma Hale in South Bainbridge, N.Y.", nothing about other wives.

The BY page says nothing about any wife.
The YouTube page says nothing about any wife.
And so on. According to the "Significant Events " entries of WW, LS, JFS, HJG, these prophets had no wife.
No wife. Zero count. They were bachelors, austere hermits.
(Or, to marry is a nonsignificant event. )

The first married prophet - after Joseph Smith - was George Albert Smith, who "1892 May 25 Age 22 Married Lucy Emily Woodruff (she died November 5, 1937)." GAS was the first nonpolygamist prophet in the 16 element queue.

Reading lines of text is the first level of reading.
The next level of reading is to read nonwritten lines.

[Guest]

Where has it been dishonest about its history? Has the LDS church denied that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? Or BY? Has the LDS church denied such facts? Where is the lie?

I am truly sorry for you, for believing what you write. How can you be so naïvely stare at blatantly proven over an over facts & go on with your life. This aspect of you guys fascinates me most.
I presume in your daily life you have normal job, hobbies, probably do not believe in psychic powers, UFO's, voodoo, (or do you?).
It just baffles me why your BS detectors fail to function in this regard, whereas it seems to perform most of other parameters, enables you to live normal life.

[_harmony]

It just baffles me why your BS detectors fail to function in this regard, whereas it seems to perform most of other parameters, enables you to live normal life.

It's a matter of compartmentalization and tradition for those BIC. For me, the trick is to live with the BS.

[_Phouchg]

an analogy

Many church members have had so much milk (and maybe a little meat) that they are surprised when somebody presents a plate of vegetables to them.

Vegetables are good for you. I think it is a moral imperative to give people vegetables for a more balanced diet. People may pour cheese on them to make them more tasty, but they still need to eat their vegetables.

Perhaps after having a few vegetables, the church member might begin to think they aren't so bad and will cut down on the milk.

as Auntie Mame said "Life is a banquet, and most poor sons-of-bitches are starving to death".



fook

[_Seven]

I don't think very many members will outright lie to you. They may tell untruths because they themselves aren't very well informed, like the sisters in this podcast who probably believe that polygamy was all about caring for the widows and whatnot. Or they may omit things, believing you're only capable of receiving the milk, so they withhold the meat. But I doubt very many in the church will be malicious in whatever they tell you. They probably think whatever they tell you, or don't tell you, is for your own good. I think they're wrong about this, but this is what is motivating them, not malice.

I've seen TBMs outright lie to people who have asked questions on troubling history. These were Mormons who knew the correct answers and didn't want to shake the questioners or investigators faith. That was very troubling for me to witness. But I agree that most LDS do not intentionally lie to people. They are Chapel Mormons who don't know any better.


For the op-

It was interesting to hear how angry the one sister missionary became when they discussed polygamy at the end of the tour and she knew why they were really there. Her voiced was raised in a frustrated manner and all she kept repeating was that she knows Joseph was a Prophet and that's all that it comes down too.
This was also her answer throughout the entire tour whenever a question was raised.
It reminded me of the FLDS women.

When they became suspicious of these guys earlier in the tour, it was funny that they asked "Is your name Steven or Steve?" (something like that)
It's like they were put on alert for Steve Benson or something?

[_Pokatator]

an analogy

Many church members have had so much milk (and maybe a little meat) that they are surprised when somebody presents a plate of vegetables to them.

Vegetables are good for you. I think it is a moral imperative to give people vegetables for a more balanced diet. People may pour cheese on them to make them more tasty, but they still need to eat their vegetables.

Perhaps after having a few vegetables, the church member might begin to think they aren't so bad and will cut down on the milk.

as Auntie Mame said "Life is a banquet, and most poor sons-of-bitches are starving to death".



fook

I am Mormon lactose intolerant. Veggies and meat are good.

[_LDSDoubter]

I've been in the church for five years, and looking back I feel like I was sold something. They told me all nice things to get me to join and were very deceptive. If they will lie to me about polygamy, blood atonement, the temple, the early church leaders, Joseph Smith, etc. then how do I know they are not lying about more important things like the Book of Mormon, D&C, PoGP, the current church leaders, etc? If someone will lie about a few things without hesitation then they will lie about other things no problem, so you never know when you can trust them.

I don't think very many members will outright lie to you. They may tell untruths because they themselves aren't very well informed, like the sisters in this podcast who probably believe that polygamy was all about caring for the widows and whatnot. Or they may omit things, believing you're only capable of receiving the milk, so they withhold the meat. But I doubt very many in the church will be malicious in whatever they tell you. They probably think whatever they tell you, or don't tell you, is for your own good. I think they're wrong about this, but this is what is motivating them, not malice.

Sethbag,
I agree with you here. I think we have some of the best people in the world in our church. I don't think they would intentionally hurt or lie to people, but I think the problem is we have marketing executive type guys at the top of the ranks that are more concerned about keeping the numbers up and the image than they are about the truth.

I know if I was an executive at the top of the ranks in this church in Salt Lake, I would put a new focus on the doctrine and take the focus off the past and present leaders of the church, who are/were prone to screw up sometimes. They should put all cards on the table, divulge everything no matter how controversial. Sure, a few would leave at first, but once the information was out for a while pretty soon no one would care about it and in the long-term we would have more members. In the long run I believe we would even gain more members because people would find the honesty refreshing.

The way the church is being ran right now its like they don't care about retention, they just want to baptize as many as possible so that the numbers will stay high. They even sent a seventy president out here where I live to speak to us about the importance of staying with a person after baptism to get them to learn the doctrine, prepare for and receive the temple endowment, and eventually marry in the temple. He said the emphasis needs to shift so that we see the new convert through the whole process. (This was in a stake priesthood leadership meeting.) While I see why he is concerned, the shift really needs to be in taking away the reasons the drop out rate is so high in the church. Once a new convert is baptized you know there are some in his life who are concerned he has joined a mind-control cult so they bombard him with literature painting it in the worst light possible.

If they hear the information from inside the church first, it won't be so shocking afterward. These sisters would have been much better off hearing this information at the MTC than from these 3 guys.