Implications Of Discovering The Body Of Jesus.

[_mentalgymnast]

Yes, it is only a hypothetical. Cool thread though. Sethbag the apologist. Who woulda thought?

by the way, I wasn't defending Mormon beliefs.

You don't say!

Regards,
MG

[_Ray A]

One of the possible "new ideas" for folks who abandon the Book of Mormon as being "true,"
is that the reality of the Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago, is NOT
determined by what the Book of Mormon has to say about the subject.

That can be a wonderfully liberating discovery.

In other words, the truth of Christianity doesn't hinge upon Mormonism, but the truth of Mormonism does hinge upon Christianity.

If Mormonism falls, Christianity stays. If Christianity falls, Mormonism goes with it. Hence the subject of this thread.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
If Christianity falls, Mormonism goes with it. Hence the subject of this thread.

I must admit, that it does get a bit lonely at times --
living the life of a non-Christian Latter Day Saint.

Perhaps if we can begin to dissolve away Christianity, we can also
discover whatever is of latter day value, in the residue that remains.

A rather radical refiner's fire that -- the one necessary to burn
off the dross accumulated since 1830 AD -- and since 35 AD.

I wonder exactly what might remain, untouched by its cleansing flames?

UD

[_Ray A]

I wonder exactly what might remain, untouched by its cleansing flames?

The Jefferson Bible perhaps? But this doesn't seem to appeal to the more radical, black and white elements in human nature. Tolstoy was another advocate of "the refiner's fire" in regard to what he called "superstitious nonsense". The majority seem to prefer their morals and beliefs "souped up" with Superman-like characters. Witness Nephi, for example.

[_Mary]

A rather radical refiner's fire that -- the one necessary to burn
off the dross accumulated since 1830 AD -- and since 35 AD.

I wonder exactly what might remain, untouched by its cleansing flames?

Dale, I think that what you expressed here..

The New Testament is jam-packed with messages about people having to
"believe," but it says very, very little about what Jesus communicated as
"gospel" -- at most, there are a few intriguing passages about what the
Kingdom of Heaven is "like."

Strip away all the churchly propaganda -- the "you must believe this" stuff.
Strip away the idea of Jesus being a purposeless teacher of morality.

Concentrate upon the precept of "encounter."

What did a Palestinian peasant "encounter" when he or she experienced
the essence of a parable hit like a ton of bricks?

What did a disciple "encounter" when he or she witnessed tears in Jesus' eyes?

What do we "encounter" when we pass through Jesus as a gateway?

Turn the old teaching on its head -- Instead of saying Jesus is the gate,
see the Gate as the way provided through Jesus, to eternity/infinity.

It is the "only" gate -- no matter that we term it Jesus, Krishna, Buddhahood,
or our own Inner Self.

Forget the terminology and concentrate on the gateway.......

says it all for me at the stage I am at in my life right now...

The impression that I have of Jesus the man, underneath the myth that has come to surround him, is that he was more interested in people following his words in terms of practical everyday living and what it might mean to be truly religious and truly Godly. I think that kind of idea would be revealed particularly by his supposed words that 'true religion was to visit the orphans and the widows'.

True religion really is about loving your neighbour and yourself. I guess that can sound kind of trite, but it really is a simple message at its heart, and quite beautiful in its simplicity. It's also inclusive and covers the agnostic, the atheist, the Buddhist, the Hindu and the Muslim.

I 'hope' that God is more interested in the way I live my life day to day in terms of the way I treat others and myself, than he is in what religion I belong to. I would think that the only time God (he/she!) would be really interested in a persons religious affiliation is if that affiliation acts as a stumbling block to true progress in terms of the ability to love others and self and in terms of self-awareness based on knowledge of things as they really are. So, if a religious organisation 'helps' someone to love better and understand the world around them better, within their culture, then they are in the right place for them, and if it doesn't then they are in the wrong place or maybe not the wrong place, just not the most effective place.

Perhaps I have too simplistic an attitude. I just don't want to make something mysterious and unknowable, when perhaps the answer is staring me in the face all the time.

It's like searching for the greatest treasure ever known to human kind without realising that it's been right here in broad daylight, almost screaming at me to notice it, all the time...

[_Ray A]

says it all for me at the stage I am at in my life right now...

The impression that I have of Jesus the man, underneath the myth that has come to surround him, is that he was more interested in people following his words in terms of practical everyday living and what it might mean to be truly religious and truly Godly. I think that kind of idea would be revealed particularly by his supposed words that 'true religion was to visit the orphans and the widows'.

True religion really is about loving your neighbour and yourself. I guess that can sound kind of trite, but it really is a simple message at its heart, and quite beautiful in its simplicity. It's also inclusive and covers the agnostic, the atheist, the Buddhist, the Hindu and the Muslim.

I 'hope' that God is more interested in the way I live my life day to day in terms of the way I treat others and myself, than he is in what religion I belong to. I would think that the only time God (he/she!) would be really interested in a persons religious affiliation is if that affiliation acts as a stumbling block to true progress in terms of the ability to love others and self and in terms of self-awareness based on knowledge of things as they really are. So, if a religious organisation 'helps' someone to love better and understand the world around them better, within their culture, then they are in the right place for them, and if it doesn't then they are in the wrong place or maybe not the wrong place, just not the most effective place.

Perhaps I have too simplistic an attitude. I just don't want to make something mysterious and unknowable, when perhaps the answer is staring me in the face all the time.

It's like searching for the greatest treasure ever known to human kind without realising that it's been right here in broad daylight, almost screaming at me to notice it, all the time...

And I think what you wrote above, Mary, describes my thoughts almost perfectly. I wouldn't call it "simplistic", but more like "sensible".

[_Uncle Dale]

...
too simplistic an attitude
...

'Tis a gift to be simple
'Tis the gift to be free,
'Tis the gift to come down
-- where we ought to be...


I imagine Jesus -- at some point in his life -- having this inner dialogue:

"Oh my! Of all the religions in the world, I had to be born a Jew!"

"What on earth shall I do? -- Well, I can start by repeating and promoting
the best parts, perhaps. Isaiah's good. Lots of truth in the Psalms. May be
able to make some use of Jonah and Job..."

"So -- if people would just live their religion, they'd be better off. We would
have to take care of each other, if we really followed Moses' laws. The
Romans wouldn't know what to make us of then -- if we really did that."

"Too many Pharisees out there, trying to work their way to heaven -- trying
to be laymen Levites. They're missing the whole point of life. Must do
something about that. They want to be perfect, hunh? Well, I'll confront them
and tell them to be as perfect as our Heavenly Father. That should sweep
the rug out from under their feet. Might even get a few of them to repent."

"Must go down to the Jordan and see how John is doing. He's got the right
idea, but not much is coming of it yet."

"If I'm not careful some Sadducee is going to stir up folks to stone me!"

"OK -- Judaism is a tough religion -- but it's the best we've got. Even some
of the Gentiles realize that. Must go over to Samaria -- some good-hearted
people there. Oh, and Passover in Jerusalem next spring. Might be a problem."

UD

[_Ray A]

I imagine Jesus -- at some point in his life -- having this inner dialogue:

"Oh my! Of all the religions in the world, I had to be born a Jew!"

"What on earth shall I do? -- Well, I can start by repeating and promoting
the best parts, perhaps. Isaiah's good. Lots of truth in the Psalms. May be
able to make some use of Jonah and Job..."

"So -- if people would just live their religion, they'd be better off. We would
have to take care of each other, if we really followed Moses' laws. The
Romans wouldn't know what to make us of then -- if we really did that."

"Too many Pharisees out there, trying to work their way to heaven -- trying
to be laymen Levites. They're missing the whole point of life. Must do
something about that. They want to be perfect, hunh? Well, I'll confront them
and tell them to be as perfect as our Heavenly Father. That should sweep
the rug out from under their feet. Might even get a few of them to repent."

"Must go down to the Jordan and see how John is doing. He's got the right
idea, but not much is coming of it yet."

"If I'm not careful some Sadducee is going to stir up folks to stone me!"

"OK -- Judaism is a tough religion -- but it's the best we've got. Even some
of the Gentiles realize that. Must go over to Samaria -- some good-hearted
people there. Oh, and Passover in Jerusalem next spring. Might be a problem."

The uncensored Jesus:

"Fasting sucks."

"Forty days!? Forty days!? What did I get myself into?"

"The truth is that pub wine tastes better, who cares about the publican's personal habits. Cheers"

"Simon, I like your house, so today you will feed me as a lesson in humility."

"Peter, I told you not to listen to your wife."

"James and John, who do you think I am, Rambo?"

"I think Judas has a bee in his bonnet."

"Sorry about the stale bread folks, better than air."

"I have bad vibes about this whole God thing. It probably won't be long before someone nails me."

"Damn Jews!"

"I'll be back."

[_Uncle Dale]

...
"I think Judas has a bee in his bonnet."
...

(Judas)
Woman your fine ointment
Brand new and expensive
Should have been saved for the poor
Why has it been wasted?
We could have raised maybe
Three hundred silver pieces or more
People who are hungry
People who are starving
Matter more
Than your feet and hair

(Mary Magdalene)
Try not to get worried
Try not to turn on to
Problems that upset you
(oh) Don't you know
And we want you to sleep well tonight
Let the world turn without you tonight
If we try
We'll get by
So forget all about us tonight


UD

[_Ray A]

(Judas)
Woman your fine ointment
Brand new and expensive
Should have been saved for the poor

Great song, great movie/musical. I testify that Andrew Lloyd Webber is a prophet.